Yesterday, Toronto Police Services issued this Press Release:
Safe Cycling: Share the Responsibility
Broadcast time: 10:05
Monday, June 18, 2007Traffic Services
416-808-1900Did you know that:
- one cyclist is injured every 9.21 hours on Toronto streets?
- the last seven cycling fatalities in Toronto have involved large commercial vehicles?
- each year about 1,100 cyclists are involved in collisions?
- riding your bicycle on the sidewalk endangers pedestrians?
- motorists parking in designated bike lanes endanger cyclists?
- motorists opening their doors without looking is hazardous to cyclists?
The Toronto Police Service will be initiating a one-week "Safe Cycling Share the
Responsibility" Campaign, starting Monday, June 18, 2007. The campaign will conclude on
Sunday, June 24, 2007. This will be the third initiative undertaken as part of the Service's
comprehensive traffic safety strategy, "Operation Safe Journey."The "Safe Cycling Share the Responsibility" Campaign will focus on motorists whose actions endanger the lives of cyclists. Drivers failing to proceed through turns safely, opening vehicle doors improperly, and driving in designated bicycle lanes, all contribute to reduced cycling safety.
For more information on "Safe Cycling Share the Responsibility", please contact Sergeant
Paul Bainard at 416-808-1908 or Constable Stephen Burns at 416-808-1919.Constable Isabelle Cotton, Public Information, for Constable Stephen Burns, Traffic Services
I find it interesting that there is clear emphasis on cracking down on motorists. Past safety blitzes I've heard about seem to always focus on cyclists. I wonder what the outcome of this will be? Will we hear a followup with some numbers? Will it be back to busines as usual next week with people parking all over the bike lanes, dooring cyclists, and passing too closely?
The Toronto Sun has an article in today's paper as well.
Comments
Anonymous (not verified)
Obsessive Toronto Cops
Tue, 06/19/2007 - 16:26I got pulled by a cop under this campaign this morning. I was coming down Queen St, with a street car squeezing me out and over into the tonnes of parked cars lining the streets. Coming to a very minor intersection, with absolutely no cars coming through it, even in the distance, I took the decision to continue through the red light after stopping for a moment in order to put distance between myself and the street car that was riding my ass all the way along. What do I get for this cautious approach to cycling?
A 190 Dollar fine and an earful of crap from a cop. Its absolutely ridiculous that cyclists are treated the same as cars in the Toronto traffic codes, we are clearly not large metal hunks of junks, powering down the streets, but more flies in comparison - breaking a red light when there are no cars coming is clearly not a danger to anyone and is a clearly sane thing to do when there are so many cars squeezing you to the street car.
The cops are fucking idiots if they think this form of harassment of cyclists in the guise of an education campaign is conducive to good traffic behavior. Within two minutes of my ticket I saw two separate idiots, both jabbering on mobiles, one nearly squeezed another cyclist onto the footpath in that classic Toronto maneuver of hugging the curb with out looking. Then, the other veered all over the road in a U-turn while chatting on the phone, swinging in wildly at cyclists going the other direction. I see this sort of shit everyday - is it any wonder cyclists like me will bend the rules of the road if it keeps us ahead of traffic and is no danger to myself or others?
Get real and do some proper policing instead of picking off cyclists because we are easy.
tino
Help in fighting the ticket.
Tue, 06/19/2007 - 17:04Targeted Police campaigns against cyclists are infair. We're not drunk drivers.
Especially their infamous re-branded 'Cycle Right' campaign now called 'Safe Cycling'.
May I suggest you visit the ARC library and read up on how to fight tickets?
I should mention that writing in public about the incident as you did is not helpful should you choose to fight the ticket.
Good luck.
;-)
aidan (not verified)
Run?
Tue, 06/19/2007 - 18:55How did the cop stop you? I would never encourage someone to evade the law, but... can a cop in a cruiser and dress shoes catch a cyclist in the city who doesn't want to be caught? The question is rhetorical, of course...
Road Runner
ah yes, the law
Mon, 06/25/2007 - 13:21Oh, us poor cyclists, we're targeted by murderous motorist and corrupt cops. All we wanna do is ride our bikes...
The safe cycling campaign was aimed at motorists and cyclists alike. I confess I ran a red light on Danforth and Castle Frank last week and felt relieved when I saw that the woman in front of me was busted for running the very same light. The cop was already busy so he couldn't pull me over. I confess that I run reds and stop signs. Not because I think lawmakers are evil and cops are rancid. I like to ride pretty fast (25 to 35 km/h) most of the time and it's hard to stop and wait 30 seconds with your heart pounding and brain racing and ... damn it I have to shift down again.
But traffic control has a purpose and I'm sure if all (cyclists, motorists and pedestrians) of us obeyed the rules there'd be less accidents. I am making an effort to stop when I'm supposed to even when the bozos-on-bikes blows through them.
I think if cyclist want respect from motorists then we have to be respectful of them and the rules of the road. I've said it before and I'll say it again, every day I ride, I encounter more bad cyclists that drivers. In the past year I've had "words" with motorists on 4 occasions and in each of those incidents, I did something bone headed and was being called to task.
Otherwise, (believe it or not) I find motorists respectful and considerate. Attitude is everything man.
Darren_S
Feel good.
Mon, 06/25/2007 - 16:13There used to be a time in Ontario when you got a ticket and you would have to go to a 'feel good' session. Everyone would sit around and discuss your bad habit and then how you would work on not repeating. The hope was the offender would start to respect the people involved in creating and enforcing traffic laws. This was done in place of a trial, needless to say it was a huge failure although very popular with offenders.
Anthony, I think 'traffic control' is reaching. The rules of the road created by the HTA are very passive and motor vehicles is the only transportation type using it. Compare it to a more proactive system like shipping that depends on ships identifying one another and telling each where they are and where they are going. With motor vehicles the best that happens is that one signals and hopes the other sees it. Other jurisdictions have traffic rules with different priorities, notably pedestrian priority.
It would be nice to believe that cyclists showing drivers respect would be enough to make the world a happy place. The driving public has solidly confirmed that they cannot get along with one another, let alone an additional worry of people on bicycles. Studies seem to indicate that a good majority of accidents occur due to inattention. You can have and obey every law going. That is until the guy behind you is reading it while driving and runs you down.
I do not know how you would qualify a bad cyclist versus a good cyclist let alone against a good driver.
Road Runner
the short stubby arm of the law
Tue, 06/26/2007 - 10:48Ah yes, the perrenial excuse... the other guy isn't obeying the law, so it doesn't work, why should I follow the rules, nobody else is??? Perhaps the HTA needs revision, that's all part of the process.
I think you're idea of ships checking signals with each other is a good one. I often catch the eye of motorists (when they don't have tinted windows) to see if they are paying attention. I often have subtle signal exchanges to indicate that we understand each other. I find this approach helps to foster respect with motorists. I'm not concerned with making the world "a happy place". I am concerned with having a good ride and arriving alive. There are inattentive drivers, cyclists and pedestrians out there, no doubt about it. Part of my defensive driving strategy is being aware that they are out there.
I have some very basic criteria in my assessment of good and bad cyclists and motorists. First would be an understanding of the rules of the road. Secondly would be following them. Third criteria would be an understanding of the vehicle they are driving. If you have an automatic vehicle, you can get away without understanding how gears work but stardard vehicles require a certain amount of awareness of speed and gear shifting. While I couldn't quantify this, I would say a large number of cyclists don't know how to use their gears. A fourth criteria is in handling said vehicle. Motorists have to undergo testing to indicate they at least know the rules of the road and can manouveur their vehicle (at least during the test).
Every day I see cyclists careening through rush hour traffic barely keeping their balance, carrying cups of coffee or talking on cell phones (yes I know drivers do too and they shouldn't), cutting across several lanes of traffic without even checking, to name a few.
I guess what I'd like to point out is that so much pro-cycling rhetoric is really anti-car. My subjective experience, based on riding 5 or 6 days a week, all year round, through downtown traffic, is that we all have to share the responsibility of safety. Motorists who can't drive properly shouldn't be on the road. Cyclists without the requisite skills to ride through busy traffic should find routes that are safe. (I'm a supporter of more bike lanes so cyclists of all skill levels can ride safely).
If you review the various bicycle collision reports for the City of Toronto there are some obvious patterns. Most accidents happen at intersections, in rush hour during the warmer months. As a cyclist, I attempt to be more careful at intersections during rush hour in warmer months. Whether one's defensive strategy is to obey the traffic signals or not, being hyper alert of all traffic, vehicular, velopedic and pedestrian is a must.
Ride hard but ride safe. Two wheels go fast, yippee.
BTW, who's Anthony?
anthony
I am...
Tue, 06/26/2007 - 23:11I'm Anthony.
Or was that a rhetorical question like "Who is John Galt?" or something?
Road Runner
Hi Anthony
Wed, 06/27/2007 - 10:13Darren was responding to a comment I had made and had addressed me as Anthony so I asked, BTW who is Anthony? It was a wee bit of a joke, don't take it personally.
Road Runner, Beep Beep.
Anonymous (not verified)
About speed
Wed, 06/27/2007 - 10:16you might find you get more respect on a bike the faster you go. I have found that when I ride my fast bike that I have very few close calls, incidents with ignorant drivers, and the like.
On the other hand when I ride my beater bike around (which is limited probably to going about 15 km/h) I am treated much worse.
It is even worse If I put a box on the back of my bike to get groceries I think.
My opinion is that motorists pick on those they perceive as being weak or poor more than those who appear fast and well off.
I, of course, have no data to back this up, as that would be very hard to come up with.
Road Runner
Dear Anonymous
Wed, 06/27/2007 - 10:34Interesting comment about speed. I tend to ride fast most of the time and have noticed that my level of alertness is hyper sensitive. I tend to monitor the flow of traffic osmotically and respond at a pre-conscious level. In a word, I'm in the zone. When I ride slow, I tend to day dream and that is when mishaps occur through inattention. If you believe the Ontario guide for Cycling Skills, the slower one rides, the less stable one is on a bicyle. This may explain why slow moving cyclist seem somewhat inept. Following Anonymous' logic, motorist may in fact interpret that slow moving, somewhat unstable cyclist as unskilled.
I'm not suggesting that anybody ride faster than is safe for them. The beautiful thing about bicycle transportation is that everybody can travel at their own pace. Just not sure if slow moving unstable cyclist are safe in busy traffic - thus the need for, yes, here it comes.. more bike paths and lanes. I'd even support certain roads being limited to bicycles. Imagine a couple of east-west or north-south corridors for bikes only? That would make the narrowing of Landsdowne seem like a playground row.
Ben
Jay Biking
Fri, 07/06/2007 - 10:10I don't run red lights on my bike, ever. I jay - bike through the intersection. There is no law against jay biking. Try it sometime.
herb
u-turns
Fri, 07/06/2007 - 14:31My strategy sometimes is to make a right turn, go 8 metres, make a u-turn and then make another right turn. Voila!
I'm not sure what you mean, Ben. What is jay-biking?
Ben
Jay Biking
Fri, 07/13/2007 - 11:17Jay Biking: It is a term for stopping at a red light, making sure it is safe, and then going. It is similar to jay walking at a red light.
Dermanus (not verified)
Why?
Tue, 06/19/2007 - 20:37Why did you give him your name? I deliberately don't carry ID for this express reason. If pressured, I just start speaking about my paperz in a German accent. That usually embarrasses them enough to let me go.
Anonymous (not verified)
Evasion
Tue, 06/19/2007 - 22:00I was pretty hungover and late for a job interview, so my usual array of tactics to avoid fines were not to the forefront of my mind this morning. Mainly I'm not from here, so I have no idea how the police deal with issues like false names and verifying it with them. I'd do it all the time back home, but thats because I know the game there. He demanded something with my name on it, and that was a credit card. Really though I played the whole game of "ah I'm not from here and didn't realise" but he was having none of it, which really says it all.
And as for trying to out run a cop car on a battered old hybrid when I've somewhere to be in fifteen minutes, no so sure. I've seen Pedal the courier documentary too, just not sure if I could get that speed.
aidan (not verified)
policing yobs
Tue, 06/19/2007 - 23:56Hey, I am not criticizing your decision to stay, just throwing a thought out there. Law students are taught that "the law is a whore", which could mean any number of things; I take it to mean that it is bought, sold and arbitrary. It is just the sort of thing that happened to you, that makes people not repect the law, much less police.
One thing among many to make me resent the police was getting harrassed by a cop doing security for a film shoot. Paid to be there by a road-hogging production company, tried to get my ID (was it because I was on a bike, too?), in his METRO POLICE UNIFORM! How is they can wear that when not on proper police duty? I was younger and more niave. I stopped, and he gave me quite a hard time. Took my personals and no doubt tossed them, as it had nothing to do with the law, and everything to do with intimidation. Well, that's the nature of policing isn't it? At least the yobs I run into policing seem to think so.
Next time that happens, I am getting his name and badge number, and see if he'll explain what law I have broken... or should I just flip the bird and hightail it?
John G. Spragge (not verified)
Let us set...
Fri, 06/22/2007 - 21:29a good example for motorists, instead of telling them why we have to blow through lights and stop signs. That way, we can keep the topic of conversation on the need for mutual respect, rather than on our riding.
anthony
those who live in glass houses...
Fri, 06/22/2007 - 23:21...are always the first to throw stones.
Ever notice how motorists like to complain about cyclists "disregard for the law"? And yet how many motorists actually come to a full stop at a stop sign? Or yield right of way properly at a four way stop?
from here:
how many of these motorists were obeying the law at the time? How many of these were "victimless" crimes?
If a cyclist blows a stop sign or red light the risk that they put others at, especially those more vulnerable than themselves, is much smaller than the same risk of motorists when they do it. And yet motorists continue to break the law and then blame the victim. They've been at it a while now, too!
Anybody got the stats for how many people cyclist killed, either in this city, or across canada last year? How does that compare to motor vehicles? Is this for both on the road and off road? Somehow I doubt that cyclsts' "lawless" behaviour is a big killer.
John G. Spragge (not verified)
Cyclists who violate the law...
Sat, 06/23/2007 - 03:11do not excuse car dependence, car overuse, cars destroying the environment, cars destroying our city, homicidal drivers, careless drivers, road rage, or road hogs in cars. But cyclists who insist they (we) have a right to violate the law make it harder to talk about these things. When we justify our decision to bust stop signs and red lights, we create a huge obstacle for ourselves when we call for respect.
I found what looks like an excellent analysis of bicycle fatalities; in most of the cases, the fault lay with the operator of the motorized vehicle. Some motorists don't want to hear that. Do we really consider the ability to bust a red light or a stop sign so important, so precious, that we will defend it at the cost of talking about more important things like sharing the road and mutual respect? Do we really want to hand the people who consider us a nuisance an easy distraction from the important issues? Do we want people who might otherwise ride with us, organize with us, and fight the politicians with us to look upon us as a culture of lawlessness and contempt for safety?
I think we can do better. I think we can set an example.
Darren_S
Cyclists who violate the law should...
Sun, 06/24/2007 - 00:09be shot and pissed on at first light. It would save a lot of damage to cars.
All laws deserve challenge to test their worthiness. Laws that have govern the road have done a fairly poor job at it. Your whole argument revolves on who is better at calling the kettle black.
anthony
just run them over!
Sun, 06/24/2007 - 01:18Cyclists who break the law put themselves at considerable risk, and may eventually pay the ultimate consequence.
Motorists who break the law too often kill pedestrians, cyclists, and other motorists. And then get away free, or perhaps with a fine, if truly unlucky. And they even get to blame the victim, too! (Oh the pedestrian came out of nowhere, the cyclisty wasn't wearing a helmet, etc) Boo hoo, the poor motorists.
My arguments truly suck, but they don't suck as much as the murders that occur on our streets every day from motorists. I hate the idea of being a victim because there are roads. I don't even have to leave the house, the motor vehicle will even come and hit the house for me: It's like a delivery service, and I didn't even have to call to order! see http://680news.com/news/local/article.jsp?content=20070526_101737_5624 for only one example.
Black is black, and it's wrong to break the law. We should never j-walk, spit on walkways, or blow through stop signs, or break the many other laws that govern our life. And yet every day eveyone does. We are all sinners, and we should all repent. We are all guilty; Kafka was right. Mind you, so was McLuhan.
Anthony -
who's is starting to lose his sence of humour on this topic...
Darren_S
Overrun
Sun, 06/24/2007 - 22:09History is rife with good people breaking the law to challenge its stupidity. All part of the democratic process. Apartheid and lack of voting rights were all laws. What would have happened if every one obeyed them?
There are cyclists undoubtedly out there that are anti-social and are few bricks short of a load who would ride through a busy intersection against a red without a moment's thought.
There are others who simply believe that things should be different and will ignore things like the HTA. They face all of the risk/reward and punishment/admiration for taking a stand for what they believe, whether we agree with them or not. We would all have a very awful life if the law was static.0
John G. Spragge (not verified)
Back a little...
Tue, 06/26/2007 - 16:44I don't think anyone here doubts that motorists violate the law at least as much as cyclists, or that motoring crimes do far more harm. I don't think any of us see the HTA as flawless. I consider the current car-centric transport policy criminally reckless with the air we all breathe, not to mention the lives of the people on the street. The leniency enjoyed by homicidal drivers appalls me.
I simply say, as I have said before, that if we argue that we as cyclists have a right to break the law anytime obeying the law would inconvenience us, that argument gets in the way of other points we want to make. I have come to this conclusion after reading dozens of web-log posts; motorists who dislike cycling often use this as their primary argument.
I'll just address a couple of points raised here earlier:
1) People who attack cyclists for disregarding the law overlook worse crimes by motorists.
Absolutely right. For exactly that reason, I consider it a mistake for us to argue that we can disregard the law safely, and that we should have a right to do so. When we make an issue of cyclists having a "right" to violate the law, we ignore motorists who do violate the law.
2) Cyclists who flout the law do so as a form of civil disobedience.
Although no universal definition of civil disobedience exists, the definition I generally accept includes the following: (a) a clear analysis of why we consider the law/government policy wrong. I don't see that here. Inconvenient does not equal wrong. (b) An effort to change the policy within the law. If any cyclists have mounted a serious campaign to get traffic lights abolished, I have yet to hear of it.
Darren_S
The Idaho stop sign
Tue, 06/26/2007 - 19:29I think John you will have to look to Idaho where they changed their law as it applied to cyclists and stop signs/lights. There cyclists need not stop for either provided it is safe to do so, they are treated more as yield signs. So there have been 'serious campaigns' to get traffic lights abolished and/or their effects mitigated. The change in Idaho did not occur overnight, more and more people challenged till finally there was enough of a critical mass/political will to change it.
Cyclists, like any other citizen, has the right to challenge any law they chose to. Whether they have the right to break the law is another issue. That cannot be taken away from them because other cyclists feel it is inconvenient to their cause.
Apologies to Anthony, was replying to Road Runner in earlier post.
John G. Spragge (not verified)
Reform...
Tue, 06/26/2007 - 23:57If someone, somewhere in the world works for and gets a change in a law, that does not justify anyone, anywhere in breaking a similar law in their jurisdiction. The traditional definition of civil disobedience requires that you personally attempt (legally) to change the law you break. In any case, the principle of civil disobedience generally applies to laws which implement an actual injustice, not laws we find inconvenient.
Just to come back to the original point: I see some pretty substantial evidence that cyclists who claim a unique right to ignore the law steer the discussion away from the issues, from facilities for cyclists to the actual case for changes to the law, which would improve the cycling environment for all of us. I claim no right to tell anyone they cannot break the law (although I can and will point out the weaknesses in their justification). I certainly claim no right to tell anyone they have no right to argue for changes to the law, something I engage in myself quite a lot. But I will also point out the downside of public attempts to justify breaking the law.
Anonymous (not verified)
Thank you John
Wed, 06/27/2007 - 04:53Good to see someone else out there isn't trapped in the mindset that equates a bike with a car. I mean after all that is how the rules of the road here define it. It is totally idiotic to use the same set of rules for cars as for bikes. It's illegal to hop on the path - but what the fuck do you do when a truck squeezes you off the road or construction work blocks the curb? Get real people. I've enough experience with cycling to realise that I am in a much more fragile position than a motorist and as such assess the risk on that basis, I've had zero accidents and my cycling is tame and considerate - applying the exact same rules to me that are designed for huge metal boxes really amounts to an absurdity. Should prams be forced off the paths and into the traffic lanes, they are after all vehicles of transit? And whats the fixation with the bell in Canadian bike regulations? Would a hooter do or couldn't I just shout at driver about to door me?
Darren_S
Time for a new dictionary.
Wed, 06/27/2007 - 08:07John I really cannot figure out which dictionary you are using. I looked at several different definitions and nothing came close to what you are suggesting. Civil refers to the fact that there is no violence involved when one "breaks" the law.
Here is one of the definitions available on line,
Refusal to obey civil laws in an effort to induce change in governmental policy or legislation, characterized by the use of passive resistance or other nonviolent means.
Laws are changed in one of two ways. Either through an act of parliament or through the courts. The latter and probably the most common, usually involves an individual getting charged with an offence and then appearing before a judge. He makes his case and then either loses or wins, the process is repeated in the appeals process. Provided the accused wins at every stage he then changes the law by whatever new interpretation the court provides. If a cyclists challenges stop signs and makes a case for it then wins he has changed the law regardless.
Now is every cyclist blowing through lights looking to challenge the HTA, probably not. Yet one will caught and will challenge the law.
John G. Spragge (not verified)
Civil disobedience
Wed, 06/27/2007 - 12:14I use the same definition of civil disobedience that I and my friends use when we risk arrest to protest the destruction of First Nations culture, wars, arms races, and assorted other forms of violence.
As for the prospect of changing traffic laws through the courts, I have never seen an example where that worked, and I don't see any prospect of it happening here. Traffic courts tend to defer to the legislature, and I honestly don't see a viable legal or charter argument against stop signs or traffic lights.
In any case, I insist on the difference between a well-conceived and strategic campaign to change the law, either through the courts or the legislature, and a generalized claim that cyclists have the right to break any traffic law that doesn't suit us. The former I support. While I defend anyone's right to do the latter (you'll notice I don't call for unplugging blogs, nor do I make personal attacks, etc.), I do find it has a cost. If nothing else, it uses up a huge amount of energy to no purpose.
Darren_S
Really John
Wed, 06/27/2007 - 15:37Really John, where do you get this stuff from.
"Traffic courts tend to defer to the legislature..." How about they refer to case law? The court looks at past cases to guide them in the interpretation of the law, the legislature writes the law. All of the case law came about from someone challenging the law. Virtually every section of the HTA has been challenged. It could probably be argued that Charter protection is already afforded to cyclists who go through red lights. If you are stopped or about to stop for a red light and someone threatens to run you over you have the right to proceed through in order to protect yourself. Protection would exist if you got nailed for running a red at a light timed for motor vehicle traffic only, I am thinking about wide intersections. It would be interesting to see a challenge based on the increased exposure to exhaust as one had to wait for a stop sign.
You do not run much of a risk of arrest at a protest provided you do not engage in or threaten violence, once you engage in violence you are no longer in the realm of civil disobedience. You have a right to protest, protected by the Charter in turn supported by case law.
The right to challenge a law is much different from your right to break the law. Many people have successfully challenged the law without a "...well-conceived and strategic campaign to change the law".
I took a quick peek at your blog. Mobility rights under the Charter mean the right to enter and leave Canada, work/live in any province, etc. Has nothing to do with riding a bike or walking or driving.
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/charter/index.html#circulation
John G. Spragge (not verified)
Answer
Wed, 06/27/2007 - 17:28I get this stuff from experience in various lower courts. If you can find one lawyer who thinks they could get a justice of the peace in traffic court to entertain a charter argument to the effect that no cyclist has an obligation to obey stop signs or red lights, please post a cite: I'd love to read it.
Yes, all cyclists with a reasonable apprehension that a driver intends to assault them in any way can go through a red light or stop sign to evade an attacker. That right (called the defence of necessity) exists in common law. I would go farther: I would defend any cyclist's right to deal with any dangerous situation by breaking the rules to the extent necessary to do so. Such a defence does not, however, extend to cyclists that running red lights or stop signs because they find it inconvenient to stop. And I honestly don't think the traffic courts would or will ever entertain an argument that it does.
The terms "risk arrest" and "civil disobedience" tend to get used interchangeably; both phrases refer to the violation of a law, or disruption of an institution, which produces injustice. Some aspects of critical mass (depending on your interpretation of the law) qualify as civil disobedience. Just to clarify: I personally consider the critical mass ride completely legal. But a statement that you do not propose to obey the law because you find it inconvenient most definitely does not qualify as civil disobedience.
I'll gladly answer any comment you make about my weblog, if you'll post your comment there.
Darren_S
How about a straight answer?
Wed, 06/27/2007 - 20:25John, First you state that, "Traffic courts tend to defer to the legislature...", and then when challenged change your tact to "I get this stuff from experience in various lower courts." You seem to know what common law is, so you have to know that your first statement is incorrect.
Outside of a Careless Driving charge how many lawyers have you seen in traffic court? Regardless, the Charter is used all of the time in different cases. If someone had the right evidence to challenge a stopping law then they are open to challenging, either via the Charter or an inadequacy in the HTA. The JP could easily dismiss their attempt but an avenue to appeal is open. Timing of lights has been used quite successfully over the years to defend against no stopping charges, it comes down to a simple problem of math.
"The traditional definition of civil disobedience requires that you personally attempt (legally) to change the law you break". You have change your definition for civil disobedience so many times it is hard to know what it is, I do not even see how it is relevant.
Where did you get this from, "But a statement that you do not propose to obey the law because you find it inconvenient most definitely does not qualify as civil disobedience."? I said that if you are prepared to challenge a law you dislike, you run all of the risks and rewards of doing so. Just showing up at court and saying I find the law inconvenient does not hack it, nor is it what I am suggesting. One certainly does not need the cycling community's permission to challenge the law.
I would agree civil disobedience is a tool of CM. It is concerned with social-political matters so are other issues running at the same time.
John G. Spragge (not verified)
Ok, let's clarify...
Thu, 06/28/2007 - 02:13If you want to challenge my consistency, please provide quotes from me in which I have changed or contradicted my definition of civil disobedience.
Then if you wouldn't mind going back to the beginning of this thread, the post I originally responded to, please explain how the statements in that post add up to a challenge to the section of the HTA which deals with traffic lights.
When we claim that as cyclists we or deserve have a special exemption from the law, I believe we alienate people who might otherwise support, join, or at least not oppose us. You don't have to agree with that, but I would like to know what rationale you have for disagreeing with it. Whatever your opinion on challenging the law, that has no relevance to the point I made.
To answer your other point: I claim no particular right, or ability, to stop cyclists from breaking the law. I do claim the right to point out that doing so has a cost: on the evidence, it appears to inflame opponents and alienate potential allies. I will continue to point out the problems with arguing that we have a right to break the law. If you have an objection to my position, please explain it.
Darren_S
Clarify what?
Thu, 06/28/2007 - 08:58Cyclists do not have any special exemptions or rights. They have the exact same ones as motorists and as any other citizen.
You keep moaning on about "the right to break the law'. I have repeatedly told you there is no such right. There is a right to challenge any law by any person. Some people will plan it out others will find themselves unexpectedly charged with an offence and will have to defend themselves.
"When we claim that as cyclists we or deserve have a special exemption from the law, I believe we alienate people who might otherwise support, join, or at least not oppose us." You keep reading into this. No one is making the claim. This is right wing hack stuff right out of the Harper manual. Sully a person because they have a belief that will cause you some grief. Part of the democratic process is that you may offend some people, it happens. The law is not rigid nor easy, if it were we would never progress as a society.
You for some reason tried to make this an issue of civil disobedience when it has little to do with it on top of conjuring up some definition you and your friends made up for it without telling the rest of the world.
Road Runner
I'm right, you're wrong
Thu, 06/28/2007 - 09:57Hey guys, this is devolving into an "I'm right, you're wrong" argument. My experience is that no one ever wins these kind of matches. Besides, if I recall the genesis of this dogmatic trajectory is that some enterprising activists wanted to bring to the City's attention the fact that they have not kept their promise to build more bike lanes. You guys seem to be getting bogged down in in the sidebars.
Yapping about the law won't safe cyclists. Perhaps new bike lanes will. An Energy Bar for thought.
John G. Spragge (not verified)
Going back...
Thu, 06/28/2007 - 15:50Let's address, please, what the person whose comment started this thread actually wrote. OK? I read it as:
I see no way to read this except as a claim for an exemption from the law. From reading statements from other cyclists, it seems to me that as a community we tend to make this statement a fair bit. It also seems clear to me that this statement, more than any other, raises hackles. So as we embark on organizing for better cycling facilities and more respect for cyclists, I think it makes sense to look at that one claim, which above anything else we claim or do alienates people.
I don't know if Darren_S and I have met. I do know he has produced a caricature of me and what I believe. I hope we can meet and work out the personal side of these matters. In the meantime, I'll go back to the issue at hand, because if we want bike lanes, if we want bike routes, if we want the city to spend money joining up bike paths, then political support has to matter to us. So I'll ask this again: where, in the post which started this whole thread, do you find a principle so important that it justifies alienating people who might otherwise support us?
Darren_S
Red light go.
Thu, 06/28/2007 - 17:14John,
Evans v. City of Toronto establishes the condition on Queen St. as it relates to cycling. It is not unreasonable to believe, as he states, "I was coming down Queen St, with a street car squeezing me out and over into the tonnes of parked cars lining the streets." ,that he had enough fear of being forced into a dangerous situation by remaining beside the streetcar to blow the light. Even more reasonable to believe that the cyclist would be found not guilty due to duress. While I am not into the habit of blowing lights, if I found my self in a similar situation I would blow the light.
He has a legitimate complaint with respect to the ticket regardless of what "hackles" may occur. I think he has raised and extremely important issue that needs to be thoroughly examined regardless of how much discomfort it provides you.
John G. Spragge (not verified)
Emotions...
Fri, 06/29/2007 - 04:00make an inefficient focus.
It does not make me particularly "uncomfortable" to have cyclists justifying blowing lights, blowing stop signs, or violating any other rules of the road. It does strike me as ineffective politics.
If you see this as a safety issue, I suspect we agree on it to some extent, because I believe the HTA has the overriding purpose of keeping people safe, and therefore the courts should recognize safety as a justification for, say, a cyclist who takes the lane or even, in a serious situation, goes through a red light. I qualify that two ways: everyone has the same right to invoke safety as a justification, from pedestrians to the drivers of eighteen wheelers, and when we invoke safety as a justification for a breach of the HTA, it makes sense to identify the safety situation and the threat clearly.
Darren_S
Disconnect
Fri, 06/29/2007 - 06:28There is a large disconnect with what happened here and your overwhelming need to define it as bad politics. When that streetcar was bearing down on him he was not thinking how it would look politically, only how it would feel if any of the identified dangers of Queen St would come to bear.
"...when we invoke safety as a justification for a breach of the HTA, it makes sense to identify the safety situation and the threat clearly." The cyclist made the point (identified the threat) in his original post. You chose to ignore that info, for whatever reason, in your last post summing up the event. I find that quite disingenuous.
John G. Spragge (not verified)
Emotions, needs, desires...
Sat, 06/30/2007 - 03:23have no relevance here. Either the objective facts validate my concern about the political effect of claims by cyclists to have a special right to violate the law, or they do not. I assure you that I had no need to see this, or to see this, or read anything like this, or this. I don't agree with what these people say, but they either believe what they write/film, or else they think other people will. Either way, I think (again, based on the hard cold objective evidence) we take a political hit, and I honestly don't see a compensating advantage for us in making the claim that, as cyclists, we have a right to break the law.
Which brings me to the specific case. I honestly see it as a borderline case that an observer can read either way. I certainly don't think your accusation of "disingenuous" holds; not when the post that started this thread contains the phrase:
In any case, I don't have any problem saying that while I consider this a marginal case, I still consider any cyclist facing an imminent threat has the right to end the rules to cope with that threat. But if we go farther and claim that any cyclist has the right to violate essentially any traffic rule, (evidence as cited above) we will take a political hit.
So I will ask again: if you consider it worthwhile to take that hit, why? And on the same topic, if you believe all cyclists ought to agree with you, again, why?
Darren_S
Is this for real?
Sat, 06/30/2007 - 11:14John, I think you are having me on.
The guy from London on Youtube. Do you really think I care what some raving individual with deep rooted problems rants about. It was unbearable to watch. Pay attention to some satirical cartoon??? The comments you linked to were a real joy. First one complains that they cyclists are riding on the sidewalk and then by the end, same person, wants them off the road for being too slow. This is a rationale person who's ramblings we should put weight to? If you did not want to see it why did you read it? You are wasting your energy on this? I get calls from people after a cyclist memorial telling me how good it was that a cyclist was killed. In future I will ask for their number for you, they probably have a lot of important things to say about cyclist behaviour.
The issue of how cyclists are treated in contrast to cars is an important issue. I have borrowed here from another post that addresses the issue.
Coroner's report on cycling fatalities. Rec. #12 (Legislative Review) in part reads:
"Ontario's Highway Traffic act presently does little to clarify how bicycles interact with other traffic on our roads. The concept of motorized vehicles yielding to non-motorized vehicles, who in turn must yield to pedestrians seems to be a common sense rule which should be accepted by all road users. "
These were very intelligent people(doctors, lawyers, engineers) that recognized the problem of the difference between cars and cyclists.
Marginal case? Pretty dismissive even in the light of the facts we do have. What, cyclists should shut their mouths until it is politically advantageous or their issue is popular? It is not like TV where all the elements to the story are laid out so everyone can figure them out in an hour.
"...But if we go farther and claim that any cyclist has the right to violate essentially any traffic rule, (evidence as cited above) we will take a political hit.
So I will ask again: if you consider it worthwhile to take that hit, why?..."
Have you not grown tired of trying twist this. I think this is the third time I have said it now. No one has the right to break the law, everyone has the right to challenge it - a fundamental part of democracy. I can have it etched in stone if it can help.
You were downright disingenuous. You summed up the facts by leaving out elements that do not support your arguments.
John G. Spragge (not verified)
Lunacy...
Sat, 06/30/2007 - 15:29Opposition to cycling, fundamentally, does not make sense. It doesn't make sense that with peak oil coming, the Star still publishes a two-section spread dedicated to the glory of the car. The video you found "unbearable", I find no more insane than Case Ootes blocking bike lanes because of his terror that drivers will spend two seconds more in the same cars that they loudly claim nothing will ever get them out of. If you look at the reality of the situation, we have to deal with some pretty crazy ideas.
Which means we have a choice. We can try to gently coax the people Case Ootes and Rob Ford represent out of the crazy thought, belief, and value system they've got themselves into, or we can inflame them. Claims that we have a right to bust red lights or stop signs, or that we can do it safely, have the effect of the matador's cape waved at a bull. It does cost us, in public support, and in hardened attitudes. And what, I ask again, do we get out of it?
Darren S (not verified)
I am floored by lunacy.
Sun, 07/01/2007 - 00:39Four the foruth... I will not bother John as you refuse to read it.
Why in the hell would you waste your time on the likes of Ootes and Ford? The first is a has-been and the other irrelevant. They may have a great monied election machine but who takes them that seriously.
The best Ootes can accomplish is stalling projects. He failed to stop Dundas and failed on Cosburn. Ford? You nailed it on the head, lunacy. Actually the best thing Ootes has done is to unite cyclists against his stupidity and given the Mayor someone to blame for his failed promises.
There are so many good people working on cycling issues, why not concentrate on them? Why are you so worried about a few people on the fringe of sanity. Who in their right mind would want Ford support cyclists while he rants about his silliness? I am floored.
There are so many good people out there that can look past the bumbling rantings of these two clowns. They can examine the issues and ignore all of the silly static.
John you can spend a lot of wasted energy on the likes of Ootes and Ford and you will never get anywhere. Direct your energy to those that are doing good. There will be blips along the way but that happens with anything. Those blips though should be opportunities to progress the quality of life of cyclists.
John G. Spragge (not verified)
On communication
Sat, 06/30/2007 - 18:19Couple of comments on communication:
You asked if I wanted cyclists to shut up. I don't. I want us to think about how what we say affects what we can achieve for ourselves and the rest of the cycling public. Politicians call that "message discipline", and it works.
Right now, about 2/3rds of the residents of this city ride bicycles. We have every possible argument for cycling: public health (obesity), public health and the environment (pollution), public health and safety (the death toll from car crashes) the cost of roads, the increasing gridlock, and the rising cost of gasoline. And with all that, how many kilometers of cycle lanes did we get over the past few years? I want the cycling community in this city to win, which means, like it or not, thinking about the way we present ourselves, thinking about how we negotiate, and thinking about how we bring the cyclists who don't get involved in this work into it.
Which brings me to the second point: you won't convince anyone of anything by responding to disagreement with a personal attack. Nothing you have said so far makes me believe that complaining about getting tickets for running red lights accomplishes anything, except to inflame those who disagree with us.
John G. Spragge (not verified)
Back to first principles...
Mon, 07/02/2007 - 12:52To put it simply: I believe in cycling excellence, and to me, cycling excellence means either obeying the law whenever I can do it safely, or else mounting a serious challenge to the law, complete with good argument against that law and an effective defence strategy. When a fellow cyclist finds it necessary to break the law, I don't want to attack them. But I do want to point out that we can aim for something better. If we want to change the law, we can aim to do it in an intentional, thoughtful, strategic manner. If we want respect on the road, we can set a good example of effective road sharing. We can demonstrate what good cycling looks like, both to prospective cyclists and to motorists.
Some of the things I have said have obviously excited strong opposition, at least from Darren. So I have to ask, Darren: have you read something other than a commitment to cycling excellence and effective strategies for change into what I have written? If so, what exactly have I written that you have a problem with? And if you have a problem with the idea that excellence in cycling includes following the traffic laws, particularly the ones designed to safely regulate traffic, unless we have a clear and effective strategy for challenging them, will you explain it?
Darren_S
Bad cyclist
Mon, 07/02/2007 - 14:40John, you want to apply a higher standard and/or to cyclists than anybody else - drivers, the average Joe, farmers, etc. etc. No court has ever recognized this and there is a sad history with those who have tried. You yourself pointed to the test of reasonableness and equity.
This all to a problem that does not exist.
You have cited many instances where people are ranting about how dangerous cyclists are. Why are there no numbers to back it up. Cyclists, in Toronto, are killed at a rate of one twentieth of those killed by cars and one tenth to one fifteenth of pedestrians killed. If cyclists are so bad why aren't there kill numbers much much higher?
The vast majority of people charged with an offence did not plan for it, regardless of their beliefs prior to being charged. They just plead guilty because they should strive to meet some Wal-Mart rah rah inspired mark of excellence?
Cyclists are real people.
So I have to ask, Darren: have you read something other than a commitment to cycling excellence and effective strategies for change into what I have written?
Yes. You want to remove fundamental rights of cyclists in order to make a good PR campaign.
And if you have a problem with the idea that excellence in cycling includes following the traffic laws, particularly the ones designed to safely regulate traffic, unless we have a clear and effective strategy for challenging them, will you explain it?
Cyclists are individuals, each with their own concerns. It is complete absurdity to have them submit to "we". This is not a popularity contest. There are hundreds of checks and balances to counter anything untoward in our system.
John G. Spragge (not verified)
You've read me dead wrong...
Mon, 07/02/2007 - 21:23Darren, you've obviously misread pretty everything I've written. I'll interpose your comments with what I meant:
you want to apply a higher standard and/or to cyclists
No. I want us to recognize and aim for the highest standards, because I think that serves the cycling community in this city best; it'll help us grow more quickly, and overcome political opposition most effectively, if we set cycling as well and safely as we can as our goal. That doesn't mean I want the police, the courts, or the politicians to come down on us any harder than they do on motorists; it means agree with the League of American Cyclists that obeying the law, where possible, makes us safer cyclists and more effective advocates for cycling.
They just plead guilty because they should strive to meet some Wal-Mart rah rah inspired mark of excellence?
OK, first, I never suggested anyone should plead guilty, and I never would. And I can assure you that Wal-Mart has never inspired anything in my life. I simply believe that we will achieve more, at every level and in every way, if we commit ourselves to trying to cycle as well,
safely, and predictably as we can. If you don't like the word "excellence", I can find others. But if you want reasons to cycle as well as possible, and to hold the best possible cycling practices as the standard:
You want to remove fundamental rights of cyclists in order to make a good PR campaign.
I suppose, given your earlier misreadings of what I've written, that it wouldn't take much further misunderstanding for you to reach that conclusion. So: if you mean legal rights, I have never suggested that any cyclist ought to give up any rights: to self protection, or to fair and equitable treatment by the government and before the courts. The cycling community can say to any cyclist charged with an infraction: we will fight tooth and nail for equitable treatment for you; none of that means we have to abandon our ideal, that of cycling as safely and well as we can. As for PR-- well, if caring about what we look like to people not involved with cycling encourages more people to get on their bicycles, or encourages a few politicians to actually lay down some bike lanes, then I consider it worthwhile.
Cyclists are individuals, each with their own concerns.
As an individual cyclist, I try to cycle as well, safely, and predictably as possible. As an individual, I will explain why I do so. As an individual, I will continue to speak out about the benefits I enjoy from the way I cycle, and the costs (to me and others) of not cycling well. I don't ask anyone else to not speak up; I welcome discussion. But I would prefer to have people answer what I say (that we should aim to cycle as well as possible, and that means obeying the law wherever possible), not what I have never said (cyclists should plead guilty, give up our rights, etc.).
Darren_S
Too funny.
Mon, 07/02/2007 - 23:26League of American Cyclists so it the turmoil over at LAB? In a previous post you dismissed me for using an Idaho example. The US has the worst safety record in the developed world for cycling and you are looking to them for guidance?
The misread bit is funny too. How many times did it take before you got over the "right to break the law".
you want to apply a higher standard and/or to cyclists
No. I want us to recognize and aim for the highest standards,
Then you blather on about "..if we commit ourselves to trying to cycle as well,
safely, and predictably as we can..." or the like. Worked really well for your US friends? Though it does make sense to a point, until you go on about the "it' stuff, ie "...sets us apart.."
At best they are unproven assumptions, I do not want to even think about the number of times I have had someone look me in the face and ask why, "...if their loved one(cyclist) was doing everything right why are they dead?" Too many times to make it an insignificant number.
(add.- Toronto Police give a figure of 50% of cyclists being at fault in a collision. They have also admitted that a large number of collisions go unreported or misreported and will most likely significantly reduce the fault rate for cyclists.)
Then who says we are not cycling "...as well, safely, and predictably as we can..."? Where are the kill rates to back up your claims that we are dangerous? So far you have only been able to point to Rob Ford and Case Ootes.
JS- "I don't ask anyone else to not speak up;,
,though you would like them to restrict speaking up when they do not match your ideals for cycling.
JS- "I do claim the right to point out that doing so has a cost: on the evidence, it appears to inflame opponents and alienate potential allies."
JS- "Claims that we have a right to bust red lights or stop signs, or that we can do it safely, have the effect of the matador's cape waved at a bull. It does cost us, in public support, and in hardened attitudes. And what, I ask again, do we get out of it?"
John G. Spragge (not verified)
Specifics...
Tue, 07/03/2007 - 15:52Darren_S
Well for the fifth time...YAWN!
Tue, 07/03/2007 - 21:17"The traditional definition of civil disobedience requires that you personally attempt (legally) to change the law you break." - John G. Spragge
How do you legally break the law? Maybe you and your friends can explain it. Thoreau is still spinning is his grave.
You went on in great length in your previous post on how we should strive for excellence. You cited the ideals of the League of American Bicyclists (LAB). When excellence is so important to you why would you pick a set of unproven ideals originating from one of the worst places on the earth to cycle? Why would you not strive for proven concepts from countries that have far superior records on cyclist safety and that are much better at providing facilities for cyclists. Even more curious in light of the fact that LAB cannot agree on the position themselves.
John G. Spragge (not verified)
Replies...
Fri, 07/06/2007 - 07:05I didn't write that you can legally break the law, but that you can make legal attempts to change it. And I'd appreciate it if you would read what I write before you attempt to lampoon it. I've spent 42 years cycling and thirty-odd years as an activist, not all of it easy or comfortable. It won't kill you to make some effort to keep this conversation, if not polite, then at least relevant.
I cited the position of the League of American Bicyclists in favor of obeying the law. And no, I don't suggest unthinking obedience to the law; I simply insist that if we plan to disobey the law, we ought to have some specific analysis to explain why we find that law wrong, and a specific strategy for changing it. We cannot cite the Highway Traffic Act when it suits us, and ignore it at other times.
Please explain which jurisdictions implement the proven concepts you have in mind. I may well support some or all of these polices.
Let me remind you of the only claim that I have so far made: that cyclists ought to try to avoid violating the law, unless we have a clear analysis of why we find it wrong and a specific strategy for changing it. We don't have to break the law without such an an analysis and plan. Breaking laws dealing with safety often makes for bad cycling, and doing it in public, even defending the rightness of our doing it, makes for lousy politics, particularly when so many of us cite the HTA as our authority to use the street. If you think I have made any other claim, please cite it, because I think you may have misread my opinion.
Please provide a citation for this controversy.
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