Tell the province what you think of e-bikes

electric bikes/scooters should NOT be allowed on bike paths or multi users paths period ! yes they are dangerous on these paths because of the weight of the ebikes and the speeds that they go, I am all for differnet types of transportation but not on the bike trails/multi users paths ebikes/scooters should remain on the road where they belong. also the cops should put a stop to the roadies that fly on these paths at HIGH speeds when the paths are crowded .

I had no particular position on e-bikes a few months ago.

Now that the discussions seem to take up all of ibiketo's fora, and I see the "advocacy" of e-bike proponents (bluster and attitude, mostly), of course I had to send in a comment to the province.

Just on principle, I'm with TCU on this issue!

There is a viable exchange of ideas going on here Ed. There has been a good banter from both sides. Its good you have made your decision. I am going to keep an open mind though and continue to hear the banter, Both sides seem to have valid points. They have existed other provinces successully for years. On the bicycle side of things they do not resemble a bicycle and that bothers cyclists, because of their look and apparent size and weight. It would be an interesting study to find out why other provinces have been more open to this style of e-bike. If everyone spent more time researching than vocalizing opionion we could have had this information by now. Opinions are fine.Everyone has one, but at the end of the day thats all they are, Some facts would be good. Good, bad or indifferent.

I was assured by a salesman that the batteries on E-Bikes will never shrink your balls, but I haven't seen any data to suggest that this is the case - so I'm just going to decide for myself.

There seems to be some confusion here. Let me address one point.

Municipalities get to decide which conveyances are allowed in bike lanes. The Province gets to decide what vehicles get to travel on public roadways. (And in this province, almost all the bicycle lanes are part of the public roadway.) The Federal government gets to decide which vehicles -- including bicycles -- are safe to be sold in Canada.

If the city bans eScooters from bike lanes, that is purely a City Hall decision. The eScooters can still travel in the other lanes.

What the Province is considering is removing eScooters from the "bicycle" class of laws and putting them in the "Low Speed Motorcycle" class, (which the federal government explicitly opposes). eScooters are manufactured to the federal standards for Power Assisted Bicycles, which are different standards from the much more powerful gas scooters. Even the signal lights are placed differently!

If Ontario classifies eScooters as LSMs, the manufacturers will just stop selling eScooters here and concentrate on the other provinces and states where they are street legal. Nobody will make an LSM eScooter just for the Ontario market. So the reality is, eScooters will not be allowed on the roads, including the bike lanes.

For people who believe that eScooters have a place on the roadway but not in the bike lanes, you should be supporting the eBikers at Queen's Park (to have the eScooters allowed), but you should be fighting them at City Hall to keep them out of bike lanes.

By my reading of the recent TCU survey, about 95% of the respondents said they were okay with having eScooters on the roadway.

Killing the eScooter at the provincial level is the wrong way to go, and it's contrary to the way the rest of the country has already gone.

The Pedaller, I think everyone here agrees with that salesman you talked to. You have nothing to worry about.

Our province should be ashamed of itself!

http://www.icbc.com/registration/reg_rules_low_pwr_mtr_asstd_cycles.asp

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/emerging/e-bike-faq.shtml

Sorry Pedal Power, But I am more like Kirk protecting my starship than a Vulcan. For 3 years I have been riding my bike to work on the nice days and not driving my truck. The comes along a one year old cycling union and starts whining about ebikes and in the name of safety tries to have them banned when every other Federation Planet has adopted them "makes me crazy". If Ontario does that, myself and thousands others will simply pop back in their car or truck. That is insane, and a cycling union wishes this? I understand they dont want people to call them bicycles. Who cares, but the paths and the bike lanes are THE ONLY PLACE they can go. If a path is congested, okay ban them. But to wish for a provincial ban with thousands of kilometres of under used paths and roads capable of transporting people to work and back is maddening to me. My apologies again, but I love my bike and I enjoy my ride to work and I know so many that do. Most of them are nowhere near YB face or space. So if I occasionally lose it, it is because I find it illogical...

Veloteq Rider

...and even Spock, once every seven years "loses it". LOL

Veloteq Rider

I have spent the last three years doing just that. Promoting e-bikes and defending them to certain people who are not aware of their success in other cities or provinces. To hear complaints like "too quiet" is amazing. Perhaps all bicycles should go back to baseball card and clothespin. LOL When I see comments like " I gained weight as soon as I started riding my e-bike" people want to blame an e-bike. Lets blame video games at the same time. I know many people who are in great shape that ride e-bikes and i am one of them. I know alot of obese people who ride bicycles, perhaps trying to lose weight. That is fantastic. Would never knock a bicycle.
E-bikes are supposed to replace cars, not bicycles. If someone is cycling....Great! If someone is taking the car to the corner store to get a jug of milk or a loaf of bread, not so great. I used to drive to work, now I e-bke. My excercise is not cycling. Join the rowing club for that or the gym or play tennis. Cycling is great, don't get me wrong but it is hardly a full body workout.
I have never tried to deter a cyclist from cycling. Alot of cyclists have cars and a bike. I have a bicycle, a car and an e-bike and each one has another purpose. When gas hit $1.40 a litre last year I rode my e-bike to work for three months and saved myself at least $600.00 in gas and he environmental benefits were the plus. And as usual, the complaints are from downtown Toronto, when 99% of the scooter style e-bikers are no where near the rat race.
Ontario is huge...Toronto is Congested....

PPP, here is why Velo and other ebikers/escooterists are suspicious of MTO. They seem to be going out of their way to find and validate negatives even where there aren't any.

http://onteba.blogspot.com/2009/06/mto-distributing-erroneous-informatio...

EVCO submission to MTO on Power Assisted Bicycles - July 9, 2009
Submission of the Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa (EVCO), July 9, 2009
In response to Ontario Regulatory Registry, Ministry of Transportation 09-MTO006 posted June 18,
2009 and Ontario Environmental Registry, EBR Registry Number 010-6943 "The Future of Electric

Bicycles (“e-bikes”) in Ontario", Ministry of Transportation

The Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa (EVCO) is committed to the use of Power Assisted Bicycles in
Ontario.
EVCO recommends that the Ministry of Transport for Ontario NOT add any further regulatory
restrictions to the operation of Power Assisted Bicycles as currently defined by Ontario
legislation and Federal definition.
Power Assisted Bicycles (PABs or e-bikes) have been legal in Canada since the Federal definitions for
PABs were introduced in 2001 by Transport Canada. The Canada-wide definition for PABs is clear,
unambiguous and well developed. It was the result of extensive testing, user feedback and industry
consultation. So far it has stood the test of time and is widely adopted across most jurisdictions in
Canada.
PABs offer a safe, low-impact and environmentally friendly transportation alternative to Ontario
residents. They are a low-cost mode of transportation with negligible environmental impact in
operation. Jurisdictions across Canada report safe operation of PABs. Slow speeds limited to 32km/h of
motor assist are equivalent to typical bicycle speeds. As a result the safety record for these bicycles has
been excellent.
PABs offer increased mobility to bike riders of all ages and abilities. Considering the excellent eightyear
track record in Canada and thousands of satisfied users, it is clear that PABs are here to stay.
Ontario was the only province to lag behind in recognizing PABs. In 2006, a full five years after the
PAB definition was developed, Ontario consented to "testing" these bikes.
In 2006 after two thorough rounds of stakeholder consultation, Ontario began a "pilot test" of these
vehicles which were already proven in operation across Canada. For an additional three years Ontario
manufacturers, distributors, retailers and consumers were left waiting while operators safely rode ebikes
in other provinces. The Ontario Ministry of Transportation (MTO) promised to collect data on
their operation and safety during the three-year pilot test. To date the "pilot test" is almost over and the
MTO reports that they have collected no data. Despite promises of a thorough review, MTO staff
reports no knowledge of numbers of e-bikes on the roads of Ontario and have collected no safety
information.
As of April 2009 the PABs are now recognized in Ontario legislation - a full eight years after approval
in Canada. Now MTO proposes to add additional regulatory requirements for equipment and operation
of PABs on top of the legislative definition, despite the lack of any information or data showing this is
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EVCO submission to MTO on Power Assisted Bicycles - July 9, 2009
necessary.
EVCO is of the opinion that any further regulatory restrictions would further damage this fledgling
Ontario industry and would adversely affect the lives of Ontario residents by reducing or eliminating
their access to and ability to ride these quiet, low-impact vehicles for daily transportation needs.
So far the Canada-wide (Federal) PAB definition has stood the test of time. Provinces across the
country have harmonized operating requirements around the federal definition. Power Assisted
Bicycles have an excellent track record in Ontario, Canada, North America and world-wide. There has
been no information developed in Ontario in the three years of the pilot project (or in the past eight
years of legal operation in Canada) indicating that any further regulatory restrictions are required.
Indeed the MTO has collected no adverse reports or safety data indicating safety problems with PABs
from any other jurisdictions.
In the total absence of any adverse safety concerns shown EVCO is of the opinion that no new
regulations are required at this time.
Should new data become available, or new regulations related to PABs be proposed, EVCO would be
pleased to provide additional comments and input. EVCO has a significant amount of user experience
with PABs and would be pleased to share this information with the MTO or any other interested
parties.
Further comments on specific items in the MTO proposal are attached.
(Signed)
Juergen Weichert
President, Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa
www.evco.ca
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EVCO submission to MTO on Power Assisted Bicycles - July 9, 2009
Comments on specific areas of concern identified by MTO
Scope and intent of "pilot test"
The intent of the pilot project was to test the safe operation of PABs on Ontario roads. MTO states that
some "styles" of electric bike or PAB do not meet this intent. This is a circular argument that is without
merit. The intent was to test PABs thus every PAB that meets the definition is part of the original intent
of the pilot test.
To state that there was no awareness that PABs come in different styles while those styles of PAB have
been openly available for sale across Canada for many years is misleading at best.
Every electric bike that the MTO identified in the discussion document was a PAB and thus is eligible
under the pilot project. To state otherwise is simply wrong. If a bike is a PAB (meets federal or Ontario
definition) then it is allowed and has equal standing with all other PABs, despite appearances. The only
definition of PAB that is relevant is that of specific performance and technical description (maximum
speed and power, equipment, safety requirements) as specified in the federal or Ontario PAB
definition.
Safety concerns
MTO has stated that some stakeholders have "certain safety concerns". Many of the "concerns" have
really been questions that have not been adequately investigated or addressed by Ministry staff. Many
have been related to the operation of PABs on off-road pathways which is outside of the domain of the
MTO. Other concerns had more to do with semantics ("Do we call a PAB a bicycle or something
else?") while others had more to do with style than safety. MTO has made little or no attempt to
objectively measure and document the few legitimate safety concerns.
A few of these are discussed below along with an analysis of the "style" question.
Style
There is a concern that some PABs are of a style that is "not what we intended". PABs come in many
different shapes and colours. Some even have plastic bodywork designed to alter their look for
consumer acceptance. These styles develop from year to year much as is the practice in the auto
industry.
A vibrant PAB industry should be expected to have bikes that change style over time. In addition,
technological developments virtually ensure continual improvements in all components of bike design.
Some are improvements in safety, handling, comfort and efficiency. Others are changes in appearance.
All of these changes are within the natural evolution of the vehicle (within the current rigid PAB
definition) and should be expected and embraced.
To try to regulate style or features is pointless, damaging to the industry, deprives consumers of choice
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EVCO submission to MTO on Power Assisted Bicycles - July 9, 2009
and does not necessarily add to road safety.
Weight
There is currently no limit to the weight of bicycles in Ontario. In fact the empty vehicle weight has
very little bearing on the total operating weight since rider and cargo loads are highly variable and are
the major proportion of weight on any bicycle or PAB.
Weight in itself has little effect on safety. The common arguments are those of collisions with
pedestrians and/or infrastructure. So far there have been few if any reported incidents of PABs striking
pedestrians and no reports of damage to infrastructure by PABs. In all cases, impact by a PAB of any
weight has far less potential for risk to vulnerable road users than an impact by a full size (currently
legal and capable of high speeds) car or truck.
Speed of the vehicle has a much higher effect on braking performance than weight due to the effects on
carried kinetic energy. PABs are limited to 32km/hr under motor power and are rarely operated above
this speed. Conventional bicycles are not limited in speed and are thus capable of travel at 40km/h or
higher when operated by a trained cyclist or a rider going down hill. It is entirely possible for a heavy
rider on a conventional bicycle to carry higher kinetic energy than a rider on a PAB.
Concerns about weight are really concerns about stopping distance. These concerns are best met by
standards for braking.
Braking
The empty weight of a lightweight vehicle like a bike has little effect on braking performance. The total
loaded weight of a vehicle combined with its speed has to be considered.
Currently the braking performance standards for bicycles are virtually non-existent. Only one rear
brake is required on "regular" bicycles and no objective (specific, measurable, enforceable) braking
performance is specified.
Present Ontario legislation already has more stringent standards for braking for PABs than for bicycles.
Front and rear brakes are required. Stopping distance is specified from a given speed. Most PABs
currently available have vastly superior brakes compared to the current requirements for bicycles.
Given the current superior braking standards for PABs no additional changes to braking performance or
weight limits are required. Excellent safety records for PABs and lack of any evidence to the contrary
dictates that no changes or additional regulations should be made.
Dimensions
Any discussion of the "safety" of PABs due to size is totally misleading and irrelevant. A quick trip to
any bike shop immediately shows that most PABs are virtually identical in length to conventional bikes
and are indeed much shorter than any tandem bike, recumbent bike or bicycle with trailer combination.
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EVCO submission to MTO on Power Assisted Bicycles - July 9, 2009
Width of a PAB is equally irrelevant. The maximum width of most bicycles is the width of the
handlebars or of the shoulders or elbows of the rider. PABs are no different in width than any other
bicycle. Other bike vehicles that are wider than PABS and are currently safely operated on Ontario
roads include three-wheeled bicycles (trikes), child trailers, and any bicycle equipped with a mirror.
Bicyclists are advised by MTO and bicycle safety training organizations to travel no closer than 1m to
the side of the road or curb. Safe driving practice further dictates a 1m minimum safety envelope on
each side of any vehicle. Motor vehicle operators and driving instructors/students are familiar with the
concept of a "safety zone" around the vehicle. In this regard any bicycle that is 2m long and 1m wide
should be considered to take a space on the road total to its size plus 1m in each direction. Thus any
"standard" bike is 3m wide and 4m long. A few centimetres extra for a slightly bigger bike makes little
difference in the total dimension of this vehicle and safety zone.
Age
Initial pilot test discussions indicated a desire for a low age limit (if at all) for PAB riders. People of all
ages can learn to ride a bike safely. There is a strong argument to be made to allow riders 14yrs or
younger to have access to bicycles with electric assist. A young person learning to operate a vehicle on
the roads is much safer learning road skills on a small, light vehicle like a bicycle or PAB before
moving on to a full motor vehicle at age 16. Several years of road experience before learning to drive a
car will only serve to make young drivers more aware and safe on the roads.
The minimum age of 16 for the pilot test was selected by the MTO despite stakeholder input. So far
during the pilot test MTO has not obtained any data or operational evidence that the minimum age of
16 is appropriate. In fact there is no evidence at all to indicate that any age limit is required. In the
absence of any evidence requiring a minimum age to operate any bicycle this restriction should be
eliminated.
Wheel size and stability
Wheel size is not indicative of bike stability. Bicycle stability and handling characteristics depend on
many inter-related factors that are part of good bike design. Many high-quality bikes are available that
have small wheels and excellent handling and stability characteristics. These include folding bikes,
recumbent bikes, BMX bikes, trikes and electric bikes. There is no reason to regulate wheel size for
PABs.
5

Call me old fashioned, but I drive a car. I drive my kids to baseball, to the movies and for sleep over at friends. I drive my family down south once a year and to the zoo. I drive to my wifes parents home and to my parents home once every couple of weeks. I just finished taking my two sons to pick up two of their friends and dropped them off at a friends surprise birthday party. One day all you cyclist will grow up and will have families, and your bicycle will mean less and less to you every day. If you don't realize this yet, then you have alot more growing up to do.

"It's a clear contravention as to what should qualify as an e-bike ... it should mainly be powered by pedalling," said Bambrick.

Obviously MS. Bambrick is not up on the Federal Definition that included power on demand along with power assisted bicycles. In other words, pedaling is optional Yvonne, so no such "contravention" existed. The aging population I am sure would disagree with what you "think". It is nice that you are young enough and healthy enough to pedal your way to work.
For those wishing perhaps longer commutes to work or to the store without arriving all hot and sweaty, it is interesting that a cycling union concerned with the environment would be less vocal if the same riders just resorted back to their automobiles. Your recent "back pedaling" that the TCU does not want e-bikes banned, just the scooter style because of the plastic fairings is also interesting.

[Editors: Removed identifying criticism of Yvonne. Personnal attacks are not tolerated. Perhaps you should keep in mind that Yvonne is speaking on behalf of the Toronto Cyclists Union and thus you could focus your criticism on all the card-carrying members.]

Evan C,

Try to make your point without making personnal attacks, it reduces your argument.