The CBC reports that the pedestrian committee is working to close a loophole that allows e-bikes on sidewalks. This makes sense, as e-bikers must be adults, and the intention of the bylaw was to allow children to ride on sidewalks.
I find that my perception of e-bikes is influenced by whether the e-bike looks like a bicycle, or looks like a motorcycle/scooter. I recently saw a bicycle-style e-biker motoring her way down the sidewalk on Queen street, and most people didn't seem to care. The other day, I was passed rather closely by a motorcycle-style e-bike in the bike lane, but was glad that he sounded his bell/horn to alert me to his presence. I don't personally have a problem with e-bikes using bike lanes, and am rather dismayed that the Bike Union has taken an opposing position. A 32 km/h top speed e-bike is much nicer to share the roads with than more cars!
However, monkey see = monkey do. It looked like a motorcycle using the bike lane. After this a real motorcycle decided to use the bike lane to pass congestion, which I do have a problem with as their speed is not limited, and can actually pose a danger.
Obviously many motorists are not clued in to the existence of e-bikes yet as I saw an e-bike travelling down the middle of the lane on Eastern Avenue, which would surely evoke honking rage if it was a bicycle travelling the same speed (regardless of the speed of traffic at that time).
What do you think? Do you think that perceptions of e-bikes are different whether they look like a bicycle, or look like a motorcycle or scooter?
Comments
toddtyrtle
Hmmm
Thu, 06/04/2009 - 15:57A few questions to ask one's self:
As someone who is about 50/50 split between transit and cycling, I personally hope to see a reduction in larger polluting vehicles on the road. I am thrilled to read (as is in Veloteq Rider's profile) of someone giving up a truck for a scooter. A bike would be awesome, sure, but not always practical for everyone. What would Toronto look like if we had 2% cyclists and 2% e-bikers? How about raising them to 5% each? As best I can tell that's a burden either lifted from streets or transit and a good thing either way. "One less car" is something to strive for even if that person is not pedaling or walking to where they're going.
Filling up our bike lanes is a good thing. Given some of the arguments I've heard against bike lanes ("We built them and nobody uses them!") this could also be a good thing.
I could well be wrong but it seems to me that this is a great opportunity to improve things on the streets by adding a good number of allies and orthodoxy is getting in the way.
Veloteq Rider
I propose a peace treaty
Thu, 06/04/2009 - 18:03I propose a peace treaty between the TCU and E-Bike Riders. On June 16th there is a meeting at the Ministry of Transportation, where many organizations will be involved on this historic day. Police, Bike Union, Manufacturers, Retailers, Environmental Group, etc....If we (TCU and E-Biker Group) went in as a team and came out the same way, we could work wonders together. If we walk out of there as adversaries, I will still fight for more paths, safer paths and cleaner streets but I certainly will remember who my friends are. At the moment, when I walk into Transport Canada, City Hall and other places in my own meetings, I can't help but be critical of the TCU stance and do what I have to do with the damage control created as a result (and with as many disobediant, lawbreaking demanding cyclists on the road and pictures of unused bikepaths at rush hour....it is very easy) I would rather say at my next meeting at City Hall Tomorrow.... "You Know What?...Everythings Cool, We Worked it Out!...WE WANT MORE PATHS!!!!!" Make sense to anybody out there?
Veloteq Rider
BTW
Thu, 06/04/2009 - 18:45I tried this approach already when I sent a private email to a rep at the TCU, and I was not even given a response...A few days later, Yvonne was on CBC requesting a ban on e-bikes on bike lanes and bike paths (the only place they could be possibly ridden). Think about it, if she was successful, Joe Average in Georgetown and Josephine AboveAverage in Smith Falls, would not be able to ride his or her e-bike to the corner store anymore because a few paths in downtown Toronto are too crowded..Insanity!!!!...So...I appeal to you again TCU..stop meddling with the future, and welcome us as we would welcome you. I love the work that Yvonne is doing and that she is out there fighting and I understand, we just waltzed in and use the paths you are fighting for...not fair I know,but thats life...we can help you now if you will allow us.
Seymore Bikes
Higher Ground
Thu, 06/04/2009 - 22:48I say we set aside our differences and rise above the ill will.
No more stewing in our respective camps.
My comprimize is that we allow E-Bikes to go everywhere a Bicycle can go on one condition.
We agree to rename them F-Bikes. Is that OK with everyone? F-Bikes?
electric
you must be higher than a kite?
Thu, 06/04/2009 - 23:05I hope I can reach a "compromise" like that when I get my moped. I'm itchin' to throttle that sucker past rush hour, i'm like soooo done with pedaling anything.
rolls eyes
Ken Finch (not verified)
Go ahead Electric, and try
Fri, 06/05/2009 - 09:48Go ahead Electric, and try and weave in and out of lanes and jump curbs and run through stop signs like you probably do on a bicycle. Lets see how long you last before either getting creamed, getting a ticket or losing your license and or scooter. If your scooter is confiscated I will buy it from the Police Auction to part it out for a profit and tell you about it.
Ken Finch
Ken Finch (not verified)
OK, and lets change bicycle
Fri, 06/05/2009 - 05:20OK, and lets change bicycle riders names in downtown Toronto only to Outlaw riders instead of bicycle riders. Because most outlaws are only interested in their own selfish interests only, no matter how it affects others. They are willing to stoop to any level to get there agenda across even if that means breaking laws. They generally when pushed become vulgar in their speech and actions when they cannot get their selfish agendas pushed through because that is not what the general public wants.
Ken Finch
Seymore Bikes
Spidey Sense
Fri, 06/05/2009 - 08:25Hey Chill Ken,
My first choice was FN Bike - then you were suppossed to say, "it's an E-Bike not a FN Bike", then I was going to cordially agree after you had been trapped in my web of words.
Thanks for scewing that up (sheesh).
Ken Finch (not verified)
Ok, sorry Seymore, I thought
Fri, 06/05/2009 - 09:41Ok, sorry Seymore, I thought it was just more Anti E-Bike flack again. It is getting hard to tell the jokes from the serious sarcasm (I admit sometimes I am guilty at sarcasm as well, but I am only human and speak my feeling from my heart about something I care about).
Ken Finch
Seymore Bikes
F-Bikes
Fri, 06/05/2009 - 10:00Actually it was both.
Veloteq Rider
LOL....I would have went
Fri, 06/05/2009 - 12:57LOL....I would have went along with that one, even though I knew where it was going...LOL
Reminds me of the old "there is no "F" in Chocolate joke....
PedalPowerPat
My comprimize is that we
Fri, 06/05/2009 - 04:08F=Faux?
Agreed. Greenwashing, I fucking hate you so much.
Somehow Shell is now saving the planet from the last commercial I saw from them.
Right.
E-Bikes are a great improvement on cars but here are a few REAL detractors.
(Not part of the list but I would rather be hit by a 20 pound crotch rocket than a 140 pound battery wagon.)
All this said, I would much rather see you all on a e-bike than in a car.
Although if you are a able bodied person get on a fucking bike, you are killing me in so many ways (LITERALLY).
Ken Finch (not verified)
1 Most E-Bike riders charge
Fri, 06/05/2009 - 07:191 Most E-Bike riders charge their E-Bike overnight when the demand for electrical power is low, so our electrical grid is not getting any extra strain.
2 Because every automobile uses a lead acid battery there is a healthy lead acid battery recycling system that has been in operation for years, 98-99% of lead acid batteries are recycled every year by these lead acid battery recycling companies.
3 The coal fired electrical generators are as clean burning as possible. They are a lot cleaner burning then the diesel buses of the TTC and Go Train locomotives. And they are definitely a lot cleaner burning then the automobiles, motorcycles and gas scooters out their on our roadways. Nuclear is mostly emissions free except for the used fuel rods, that is a problem that is being worked on. Hydro dams are completely emissions free so is solar and wind energy.
Bicycles are not 100% non polluting either. You need grease for the axles and bearings and joints on the bicycle. You need oil for your bicycle chain, you also need to replace your tires and tubes, those used tubes and tires go to the landfills as well. Your body uses oxygen and expels CO2 and if you fart you expel greenhouse gases as well. The plastic water bottles you use then dispose of go to the landfills as well. The food you eat is the worst inefficient way of transferring energy as well. (I know us E-Bike riders need food as well, but less then a bicycle riders requires while riding).
Ken Finch
Veloteq Rider
PPP....100% agreed, Bicycles
Fri, 06/05/2009 - 13:11PPP....100% agreed, Bicycles first before cars. What Ken I am sure was trying to say (LOL) is e-bikes second. The exciting future is in the battery market, but the demand must be in place before the supply. Recycling of lead acid is performed successfully now. I certainly would not argue that an e-bike is a bicycle becuase that would be as incorrect as calling a moped and e-bike. Completely different category. To charge an e-bike is extremely low on consumption...it is like 15 cents on the average...
When the term "power assisted bicycles" was first introduced in 2000, e-bikes had to be "primarily pedalled. A couple of years later "power on demand" was included to accomodate those who could not or did not want to pedal. They are still under the guise of "power assisted bicycles". To spend thousands and thousands of dollars of tax payer dollars to differentiate the classifications is not money well spent in our economy. If we could learn to live with the fact that a bicycle is a bicycle and an e-bike is a "power assisted bicycle" (which is how they are categorized), and they come in different shapes and sizes. I refer again to how BC handled it 6 years ago and has proven the test of time to satisfy the masses...(never the whole)
http://www.icbc.com/registration-licensing/specialty-vehicles/low-powere...
I wished we could all play together nicer....let the fighting take place overseas.....
There are a few posters (not you PPP) that do like to push buttons that is irritating because of their childish remarks, on both sides of this topic. I sometimes have to walk away from the computer, do a lap around the block on my e-bike, pour myslelf a cocktail and watch "so you think you can dance" to unwind. LOL
Ken Finch (not verified)
Yes what I meant to say is
Fri, 06/05/2009 - 13:22Yes what I meant to say is that 2nd to bicycles E-Bikes are next in line to be green machines. But I just wanted to remind people there is nothing 100% green out there that can be riden (except maybe animals), my bad.
Ken Finch
Ken Finch (not verified)
You are degrading this forum
Fri, 06/05/2009 - 05:09You are degrading this forum even further by swearing now. Now your true age and maturity shows up. I was wondering when your true colors would show up. That aside E-Bike riders are not trying to take over the cycling structure at all. We are just wanting to share that structure equally as it was granted to us by the MTO ruling and by us being classed as a bicycle by the Ministry, that is all. But other then Yvonne and and a few elitest cyclists from downtown Toronto, the majority of the bicycling public across Ontario shares the cycling infrastructure equally and it is nice to see that not all of Ontario's cyclists are not so self centered. So get with the program and you will see this selfish agenda is not what most Ontario cyclists want. Open your eyes and take your elitest cycling (horse) blinders off and look around. You will see what you are spewing is not based on real world views or statistics.
Ken Finch
Bobby (not verified)
I don;t think anyone calls it
Fri, 06/05/2009 - 07:59I don;t think anyone calls it a bicycle.Mine is an e-bike. They are categorized under"power assisted bicycles".
Underneath the cosmetic covering is an ugly bicycle frame and pedals and a chain. You guys are too much. We needed more choices than a car, here it is.
Ken Finch (not verified)
You are correct, I did not
Fri, 06/05/2009 - 08:04You are correct, I did not mean e-bikes are bicycles. But they are classed as a form of a bicycle for the rules but are formally called Power Assisted Bicycles as you have stated. Thanks for the correction.
Ken Finch
Veloteq Rider
June 16th
Wed, 06/10/2009 - 18:18June 16th is fast approaching...
Scenario One: We walk in and the TCU objects only to the fact that there are insufficent paths, and that we insist on more paths to accomodate this wonderful alternative to automobiles and together we can make a difference. From there we exchange numbers and work together towards a common goal.
Scenario Two: We walk in and the the TCU objects to ebikes on the bike lanes and paths and makes claims on how dangerous they are to cyclists and pedestrians ( to which we counter claim based on statistics on the dangers of cycling and the total amount of accidents and deaths over the last 5 years) The TCU continues their rant that e-bikes should be made to go faster, and call them motorcyles and be on the road in mainstream traffic. From there we snear at each other and leave.
Two Paths...If I was a Union Leader I Know Which One I Would Take....But that's me.
I appeal to all union members and non union members to contact the TCU and suggest possibly a truce to work together in spite of our choice.
Together we have a larger voice and some of us have contacts as well to help the cause.
One less car on the road.....
anthony
The Guelph Police wish to
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 01:33from http://www.thefountainpen.com/cgi-bin/showstory?id=7530
Veloteq Rider
First this was not an e-bike
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 10:29Anthony
This was not an e-bike,this was a cylclist who modified his bike with a gas powered engine.
E is for electric and G is for Gas. Nothing to do with E-bikers. Interesting so many people including this particular cop haven't twigged yet. The pilot program is strictly for electric....NO GAS and NO MOTORS over 500 watts. Unfortunately there are many people who lose their licence that gravitate to both bicycle and e-bike as a result.
PILOT PROJECT — POWER-ASSISTED BICYCLES
Definition
1. (1) In this Regulation,
“power-assisted bicycle” means a bicycle that,
(a) is a power-assisted bicycle as defined in subsection 2 (1) of the Motor Vehicle
Safety Regulations made under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada), and
(b) bears a label affixed by the manufacturer in compliance with the definition
referred to in clause (a).
(2) A power-assisted bicycle is deemed to not be a motor vehicle under the Act.
anthony
Criminal Code vs HTA
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 12:46The definition by Ontario's HTA, vs. the definition found in the Criminal Code, of what constitutes a motor vehicle seem to not be in agreement...
From:
http://www.thefountainpen.com/cgi-bin/showstory?id=7533
Veloteq Rider
Either way...It was not an
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 15:02Either way...It was not an E-Bike...It was a bicycle with a gas powered motor....As mentioned, while a few of the undesirables slip through the cracks and purchase bicycles or e-bikes after they lose their licence has no bearing on their validity or place in society. Unless of course you think the e-bike market is dependant on those people, in which case you are really far off base. Couldn't care a less about that market...You can have them. Another drunk on a bicycle is the last thing we need as well. E-Bikers for the most part are looking for a clean and desirable alternative to automobiles for short commutes.
The Green Living Show was host to several e-bike companies promoting their use. Anthony, again will say until I am blue in the face, I fail to see why the TCU does not want to recognise them as another alternative. Wsihing them off the bike lanes is the same as asking for their demise. E-bikers will not switch to a motorcyle instead. They will switch back to their car. I am all for cycling as an alternative, and all for e-bikes as another. Wished you guys were.
anthony
E-bikes are motor vehicles in the criminal code
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 15:17You can tilt at that windmill all you like, but I wasn't talking about the Union. I suggest you take up your issues with them directly. The Toronto Cyclists Union's AGM is on the 18th. Memberships will be available at the door. There's no better time, or venue, to air your griefs than at the AGM.
The only point that I was trying to make is that e-bikes are still motor vehicles in the Criminal Code. So the perception of e-bikes as motor-vehicles is still valid, at least in some of the laws of the land.
from: http://news.therecord.com/News/Local/article/551692
Veloteq Rider
Anthony...a power assisted
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 15:57Anthony...a power assisted vehicle is deemed not to be a motor vehicle under the act...period.
Unless of course you lost your licence due to a Federal Offence...Who Cares about them....let them walk...they shouldn't be alllowed bicycles either, except anyone can ride a bicycle at top speed, regardless of their past drunken charges. The police are not the law makers, they are there to uphold the existing laws....certainly not to interperate the laws...but thank-you for sending me that article...I have since then forwarded information to the proper authorites to "educate" their police department. As well, there is a big difference of a motor assisted bicycle and a power assisted bicycle that seems to be explained over and over again. E-Bikes are not motor assisted bicycles...they are power assisted bicycles due to their limited speed and motor, and once again for old times sake...a power assisted bicycle is deemed not to be a motor vehicle under the act..
PILOT PROJECT — POWER-ASSISTED BICYCLES
Definition
1. (1) In this Regulation,
“power-assisted bicycle” means a bicycle that,
(a) is a power-assisted bicycle as defined in subsection 2 (1) of the Motor Vehicle
Safety Regulations made under the Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Canada), and
(b) bears a label affixed by the manufacturer in compliance with the definition
referred to in clause (a).
(2) A power-assisted bicycle is deemed to not be a motor vehicle under the Act.
vic
Highway Traffic Act vs. Criminal Code
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 16:00I think you're still missing Anthony's point. He's saying that the definition of "motor vehicle" is different in the HTA vs. the Criminal Code.
Any lawyers or other experts around here know which definition / laws trump the other?
Sounds like the criminal code wins in the case of the articles linked above (yes, I realize the person charged was driving a GAS-powered bike, but if it was an e-bike it sounds like the criminal code would have still applied).
anthony
Under the act
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 08:20The act in question here is the HTA. Yes, under the HTA an "e-bike" is legally equivalent to a "bicycle." Fine; the Province has stated in law that the two are equivalent.
However, any vehicle with a motor is a motor-vehicle in the Criminal Code, including an e-bike. This is a different act written by different body of government (that is, the Federal Government).
Several people were charged, and at least one of them was on an e-bike. The charges laid against the person riding the e-bike were under the criminal code, and not under the HTA. The warning from the Guelph Police was for all operators of motor-vehicles, and in particular the operators of e-bikes. Any operator of any motor-vehicle can be charged under the Criminal Code -- even though e-bikers might not be able to charged under the HTA.
The best options for those who would drink outside the home would be the same today as always: Hail a cab; Use public transit; Get a ride from a sober friend; Or simply walk/stagger home.
Veloteq Rider
Agreed
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 09:40Good Advice...
Driving under the influence of alcohol (driving while intoxicated, drunk driving, drinking and driving, drink-driving) or other drugs, is the act of operating a vehicle (including bicycle, e-bike, boat, airplane or horse) after consuming alcohol or using drugs. It is a criminal offense in most countries.
http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/emerging/e-bike-faq.shtml
Drinking and driving a motor vehicle is a Criminal Code offence and charges are laid under the Criminal Code of Canada. Under the Criminal Code, the definition of a "motor vehicle" would include an e-bike and anyone operating an e-bike intoxicated could be charged for impaired driving. If convicted, the offender would be subject to the Criminal Code penalties, including a fine or jail time, and a driving prohibition. However, under this pilot regulation, an e-bike would not be a motor vehicle under the Highway Traffic Act, so penalties for impaired driving under the Act would not apply
So, whether it is an e-bike or a bicycle, while you may not directly kill someone, a result of your erratic cycling or coasting you could be the cause of the accident leading up to a serious injury or death.
Ken Finch (not verified)
Also any cyclist can be
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 09:37Also any cyclist can be charged for riding a bicycle while under the influence as well. A bicycle is classified as a vehicle on our roads, it may not be classified as a motor vehicle but as a vehicle on our roads. That means a bicycle rider has to obey all the regular traffic laws plus the laws specific to bicycles. That means you cannot ride a bicycle while drunk.
Ken Finch
Ken Finch (not verified)
Sorry Veloteq Rider you beat
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 09:38Sorry Veloteq Rider you beat me to it on this comment.
Ken Finch
Veloteq Rider
Didn't beat you by
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 11:33Didn't beat you by much...Point taken to us all...as soon as we get up in the morning our lives are at risk...You could be just standing at a bus shelter, and be mowed over by a motorist. It is important to be alert to your surroundings with all your senses. We are both at the mercy of the almighty automobile.
Darren_S
Could you provide some references
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 18:09s.253 of the criminal code, offences related to driving while impaired, speaks specifically to motor vehicles which does not include the bicycle.
Ken Finch (not verified)
Darren who cares what the law
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 20:37Darren who cares what the law says, just do not drink and drive/ride. Why are you defending drinking and riding your bicycle, do you do it on a regular basis, if you do you should stop, when you are riding drunk you are a danger to yourself and everybody else around you. I would not be proud of it if you are. I would not defend the practice I actually am appalled by anybody would drinks and gets on anything with wheels.
Ken Finch
Darren_S
Fact vs. Opinion
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 22:07Ken, you presented your opinion, that drinking and driving/riding is despicable, as a fact that could get you criminally charged. I agree that drinking and driving/riding is despicable but you have yet to provide any fact that proves drinking and riding a bicycle will currently result in a criminal charge.
Your attempts to smear what I said by jumping to conclusions and reading into things is troublesome. Your presentation of your opinions as fact is even worse. I have talked to many cyclists who have acted on what others have presented as fact which actually turned out to be opinion. Some got into a lot of hot water over it.
Next time before jumping to conclusions, sit down and have a nice drink (alcoholic or not) and do some research. Alternatively, you can be a bit more precise, ie "It is my opinion that people who ride bicycles drunk should face criminal charges".
random cyclist (not verified)
that's right, bicycles are
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 20:46that's right, bicycles are above the law. they can ride on sidewalks even though it's illegal. they can shoot through stop signs. dart in and out of traffic and in their spare time they lobby against electric bicycles on their paths. excellent work. I see why bicycling is so popular.
Tom Flaherty
Boy in the Bubble
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 13:56Saw this lat night while flipping channels - this is what happens when you cross a bicyle with an inverted rail system.
http://www.shweeb.com/
Maybe we could just build Toronto a sprawling transit system that looks something like the working end of a dry cleaner.
Veloteq Rider
Great Video! I am all for
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 17:10Great Video! I am all for monorails across the city as opposed to cars. Years ago the CNE had one and even back then as a child I dreamed of one that went from one end of the city to the next. Can't go too far or bathrooms would be needed...lol
Veloteq Rider
VicI understand his
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 17:06Vic
I understand his point...and glad someone understands mine that there is a legal difference between the two. The fact that in the article they are using the term e-bike and motor assisted bicycle shows me how uninformed some police officers are. I have been working with a training sargeant for three years now and I have sent off that article to him.
As mentioned, I have no compassion for people who have lost their licence to drinking and driving....I hope that it is true that someone charged and found guilty cannot operate an e-bike.
It is too bad they are still allowed to ride a bicycle...
Pages