As the City takes baby steps towards a more sustainable city 'caritics' accuse it of a 'war on cars'; New Yorkers are enjoying a flourishing of people-friendly streetscapes; and Toronto's Urban Repair Squad is still getting a lot of media attention for its guerilla - yet affordable - bike lanes. Pictured is Martin Reis, I Bike T.O. blogger and URS photographer.
The unfortunate fact is that it's not just a few crazy councillors that are declaring a war on cars, but there's still a strong assumption by many small business owners that removing car parking spaces will kill their businesses.
Greektown BIA, Faiza Ansari states:
“Let’s face it, in this economic time, small business is struggling, absolutely struggling,” she said. “And if all of those small businesses were to actually close then that has a huge negative effect on the city in the long run and our city won’t be as vibrant and nobody will want to come whether they’re in cars or on bikes.”
Meanwhile, Briar de Lang, general manager of the Bloor-Yorkville BIA, tried to encourage the City to put bike lanes on Adelaide and Richmond instead of Bloor, as if cyclists could easily use these streets as an alternative to Bloor.
Organizations like the Toronto Coalition for Active Transportation still have work to convince small business that bike lanes could actually help their business. They've done the study, it just needs to get out. Let's hope the City's outside consultant for the Bloor-Danforth study also does a proper cost-benefit study.
Comments
electric
URS and URS(crewed)
Wed, 06/10/2009 - 19:15When we can't even get the city to "install" (painting a white line isn't really installing anything) a few shitty bike lanes... how are we going to meet the real tough decisions facing us as a result of climate change? I'm sure we'll get to it... just after this catered lunch break.
Random cyclist (not verified)
Didn't the Bloor-Yorkville
Wed, 06/10/2009 - 21:22Didn't the Bloor-Yorkville BIA recently remove parking for the new granite sidewalks? Maybe this is not about parking at all.
PedalPowerPat
how are we going to meet the
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 03:41Quoted for truth.
Nice read herb.
mybigfatgreekbi... (not verified)
Danforth BIA prime for the taking
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 10:36Sorry folks. Cry in your beer, your latte, your bottled water, whatever. The good folks who run the businesses in Greektown are fine folk. If anyone in the cycling movement in Toronto in the last ten years had thought of approaching them to do some bike things - bang things would be happening.
Every other weekend it seems those same businesses gladly close the Danforth to traffic for everything from memorial parades, to their food festival, to street hockey tournaments.
If advocate organizations would only approach the BIAs across the city ahead of conflict, volunteering a little valet parking say for starters, things might not come to a standstill so quickly.
PedalPowerPat
Screw BIA wheres the PIA?
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 14:00Screw BIA wheres the PIA?
The streets are for people, not business.
Random cyclist (not verified)
Danforth BIA
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 16:32So the Danforth BIA is asking people to sign a petition saying they don't support bike lanes on the Danforth unless they don't interfere with parking and the traffic flow. They came out with this petition without ever asking the businesses they supposedly represent what their position is (one business wrote to councillors and to Dan Egan in support of bike lanes on Danforth).
Their website says that they only have 280 parking spaces, including Green P. It would be nice to know how many spaces are Green P and how many are on-street. It would be possible to have a two-way bike lane on the Danforth losing only parking on one side - how many spaces would that be out of the 280?
http://www.thedanforth.ca/content/view/117/71/
Tom Flaherty
Scared
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 17:26Thanks for the Post.
The information on the Danforth BIA website seems a little alarmist.
They clearly have not done a good job of researching the subject.
I wrote them an e-mail to ask for some time to discuss this, also mentioned the 40 or so stores that I use on the Danforth.
Luke Siragusa
Followup
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 18:24No reason to be scared. They're taking the proposition seriously and that's a compliment. Well, sort of.
Second the shoddy research though: the cost of the bike lanes on Jarvis is NOT on the far side of $6 million, their cost is in the neighbourhood of $100,000. But let's not let facts get in the way of propaganda.
For the record the Danforth and other BIAs have been invited to attend the Danforth Meeting on Wednesday June 17.
Let's see if they show.
AnnieD
The Big Carrot
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 09:45Here's one business in the Danforth BIA which I hope (assume) is in support of bikelanes:
http://www.thebigcarrot.ca/
Does anyone know of any others?
AnnieD
More to add to the list
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 14:20Here are more businesses in the Danforth BIA that one would hope would be supportive of bike lanes (and if they aren't, they have some serious explaining to do):
Businesses with a naturopathic/holistic health focus (I had no idea there were so many!):
Inspired Life Health Centre
D'Avignon Digestive Health Centre
K. Luby Naturopathic Medicine
Kate Kent Holistic Health Centre
Riverdale Therapy Centre
Thuna Herablist Holistic Centre
Ottway Herbalist
Businesses with an organic/environment focus:
Blackstone Organic Meats
Bread and Greens (not so much, but they do highlight their organic fair trade coffee)
Magic Oven
PW2 (green concept salon)
And of course, there's Cyclemania!
There are also a whole bunch of doctors with offices in the area and I've found doctors to be generally supportive of bike lanes - many of whom don't bike themselves (I got a bunch to sign my Bike lanes on Bloor petition).
OK, clearly there are better ways for me to be spending my lunch hour. I guess I've uncovered a pet peeve of mine - organizations that purport to speak for its members coming out with strong statements on a subject before polling its members for their opinion (Hmmm... where have we seen that before?).
Annie (I live in the West end but regularly go the the Danforth to shop, eat, and attend shows).
Tom Flaherty
More Shops
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 15:16In addition to those you have mentioned, I also bike to shop at these:
Uncle Louis Meats
Home Hardware
IGA
Harvest
Source
Bamboo
Sun Valley
Rogers Video
John's Barber Shop
CIBC
Grass Roots
Alexandros
Starbucks
Sophia's
LCBO
Timothy's Coffee
Pulp
Book City
The Friendly Greek
Gabby's
Treasure Island
Jesters
Shoe Repair
Pizza Pizza
Shopper Drugmart
Allan's
Wong's Camera
Dr. Vivian Chan
The Yoga Sanctuary
Corey's
Burrito House
I wear my bike helmet when I enter these places to spend my money, I hope somebody is paying attention.
toddtyrtle
Outreach
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 16:29OK, this really highlights a need in my opinion. Shopkeepers have a perception that because the streets are filled with cars outside their doors, all of their customers are coming via car. It's like that photo that shows how much space 70 or so pedestrians/cyclists take up when they're in a bus or in private cars.How do we, in a friendly way, show that that isn't the case?
But is there some other action that could be done? Do we need to take Critical Mass on a shopping spree? Coordinate our shopping trips so that we're all making our usual trips at the same times with helmets/bikes? Have drinks/dinner together on Bloor/Danforth patios while wearing helmets?
herb
survey stores on Danforth
Sun, 06/14/2009 - 12:04What we need are citizens to survey the stores along the Danforth to get their actual opinion, and not rely on the BIA to impose an official decision. My local BIA on Dundas West is equally alarmist and is currently conducting a campaign against Adam Giambrone because of his trying to reduce parking hours on Dundas.
These lists of potentially bike-positive stores makes me hopeful.
People get out there and ask to talk to the manager to find out if they're bike positive! Then post the responses here.
Tom Flaherty
Pakistan International Airlines (PIA)
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 14:21I know I speak for most cyclists when I say we've had enough with the relentless abuse of our infrastructure by jet aircraft.
Where the hell do they get off?
And once the Taliban take over Pakistan, then what do we do?
Nip this in the bud before things get out of control!
PedalPowerPat
^^^ Hah Flaherty. What are
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 17:21^^^
Hah Flaherty.
What are you smoking and may I purchase an ounce?
Veloteq Rider
I'm in too....it's not for
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 17:23I'm in too....it's not for me, it's for a friend...
Tom Flaherty
"You Looking at Me?"
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 15:17The hidden point is that not everything is worthy of a fight. But I thought I'd support your cause just the same. So tell me, what is a PIA anyway?
dramaturge (not verified)
PIA is...
Thu, 06/11/2009 - 17:42P = pissing
I = it
A = away
Says it all...
PedalPowerPat
PIA
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 03:42People's
Interest
Association
i.e.
The Streets are for People.
Doesn't formally exist but I think i've seen it and read about it.
It is more of a overall spirit of democracy and freedom to use our community in a sustainable manner.
hamish (not verified)
pia or mia
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 11:22Maybe it should be Missing In Action eg. our politicians who blah about climate change occasionally and run ads about biking, and how we should all bike more.
Trouble is, we're Missing Action - we've had lots of inaction, including on Bloor.
Personally, I've had less pressing concerns about Danforth biking and the need for bike lanes compared with Yorkville area and the stretch of Bloor from Dundas St. W over to Ossington, and then to Harbord, as it seems to be very difficult to paint a white line adjacent to massive transit, even though it might cost up to $75,000 maybe....
and some of us might do it for less eh?
tino
PIA
Fri, 06/12/2009 - 11:50This from a former Pakistani PIA pilot: PIA = "Prostitution In Air." (so off topic ...)
Jennifer (not verified)
Cars on the Danforth Ave
Mon, 06/15/2009 - 23:59I support the Danforth BIA's position on the proposed bike lanes for the Danforth. I bike and I drive. I don't have many choices when it comes to driving but I have lots to choice when I bike. I use the sidewalk, I use residential streets. I can lock my bike where ever I like.
Please try to walk in the shoes of business owners. We are in really tough economic times. It takes so much effort and time to run our businesses. Most of our customers complain about not finding parking in and around the Danforth. We have customers from all over the city. I am an environmentally aware business but I am also a bottom line business. The volume of traffic that presently goes through the Danforth at rush hour is enourmous. While you may sit on your comfortable bike and think you are superior to the car beside you - the reality is very different. I have parents with two to three kids who have to get them to countless lessons and practices. I have customers who have long commutes who don't have the luxury of being able to cycle home. Is the Danforth BIA "Alarmists"? - hardly. The Bloor/Danforth proposal is just a juicy way for the Major to look like he really cares about this city. It is also too "hot" for cyclist to grab onto to try to "make a point". Either way it is an issue that is soliciting "sides" instead of quality solutions. I love to bike but I also think we have to do better than a sweeping East to West "marketing grabbing" solution to bike safety and flow.
Seymore Bikes
Danforth BIA
Tue, 06/16/2009 - 00:07The position of the Danforth BIA is that there should be no bike lanes of Danforth, but I don't think they understand how the lanes are to be included; the plan does not require the removal of car lane.
But don't take my word for it - come out and ask the city yourself.
Wednesday, June 17, East York Community Centre - 630pm.
PS - I bike to shop on Danforth all the time, and I never have a problem finding a parking spot.
some dude (not verified)
Think critically
Tue, 06/16/2009 - 00:43So much for cut and dry. I read the statement on the Danforth's site. I read beyond the title and I don't get the sense that they're anti-bike lane, but simply don't want to lose any parking spaces for their businesses.
I'm sure there will be the few odd people who claim to never have issues parking on the Danforth, but this is the exception - certainly not the rule. Small business all around Toronto has always been plagued by parking issues - in fact, the same can be said of pretty much any large North American city.
Fact: BIAs are run by a board of directors who volunteer their time to manage their members' interests. This will probably dissapoint some users here, but you'll be hard pressed to find any BIA directors who have any sort of vendetta against cyclists or bike lanes they have better things to spend their time with.
If a BIA is against Bike Lanes, it will almost ALWAYS be due to loss of parking spaces or significant traffic disruptions, not to screw over cyclists who are indeed also clients. Every business owner wants to maximize their revenue right?
Personally, I think this whole thing is a moot point until the City determines a proper plan of action (ie., determining if indeed bike lanes can be put in place without disrupting parking or traffic), and only THEN do we have something to debate. Given the current traffic and parking situation on the Danforth, it's not a big stretch to guess that either parking would be affected, or a middle turning lane would be removed - hence why the BIAS are opposing the bike lanes.
For those of you who claim that it's just a matter of laying down a bit of paint - sorry, but this is not the case on a street like the Danforth (near Broadview). Further along the Danforth where the boulevard is wider this likely won't be an issue, but when things are cramped, you can be certain the costs go far beyond a few cans of paint.
As Jennifer said - let's look for solutions that work for everyone instead of painting this in black and white.
dash (not verified)
back street and lots?
Tue, 06/16/2009 - 14:21There's rather a lot of back street and lot parking available... I know - there's never enough, but there IS a lot of it. The main strip allows for so little parking (one store front has room for one, maybe two spots?), that it hardly seems like a big deal to loose it, considering the increase of cycling traffic and customer base it would build.
AnnieD
You can't have it both ways
Tue, 06/16/2009 - 15:09It's not possible to put in bikelanes without taking out either one lane of traffic or on-street parking on one side. The space has to come from somewhere. So if you will only support bikelanes if there is no impact on traffic and parking, then you are esentially against bikelanes.
Jennifer, please don't bike on the sidewalk. Not only is it against the law, but it's inconsiderate towards pedestrians. Sidewalk cycling, particularly on Bloor/Danforth, is not an alternative to proper bikelanes.
Bloor/Danforth is not about "making a point". It is the primary East/West artery in Toronto and used by many cyclists already. Many more would use it but in its current configuration, with most cyclists riding in the door zone, it doesn't feel safe. Although I don't believe that parking on one side of the street (is there even parking anyway during rush hour?) represents a large number of customers, consider the customers gained by turning the street into a major cycling thoroughfare. Cyclists riding from point A to point B along Bloor and Danforth can much more easily stop to pop into a store to buy something - do you really want us riding on side streets, or taking the subway because we don't feel safe enough to ride? That's a lot of potential customers...
Annie
Luke Siragusa
Danforth [Jennifer] etc...
Tue, 06/16/2009 - 15:44The stretch of Danforth from Broadview to Pape is really 5 lanes wide, the 5th being the median that by turns becomes a left turn lane onto side streets.
Furthermore rush hour tow zones obliterate half the on street parking every day as Danforth's inbound, then outbound, lanes are converted into a highway by which tens of thousands of cars rush through, not to, the strip. How good is that for business I wonder.
It strikes me that there are a wealth of possibilities that can both beautify and further vitalize the strip.
Slow the traffic down, remove the tow away zones and GAIN parking and bikeability; convert the median to a pedestrian island with trees and benches; again ditch the median and expand sidewalk space -- some businesses appropriate so much of the sidewalk it's difficult to pass at times -- or possibly bike lanes. Or a combination of the above. Note how all the mods are geared toward making the Danforth a destination, not just a fleeting glimpse from behind the windshield.
I suspect once the Bloor/Yorkville makeover is complete the Danforth BIA will look upon the results and wonder why they haven't yet embarked upon a similar scheme. Yorkville, Cumberland, Hazelton, et al were once a hotbed of hippies and dope, now they're a destination for the beautiful people with the urge to splurge, linger and indulge.
But go around the corner to Avenue Rd. with its concrete sewer esthetic, six lanes of high speed traffic and a full 2 meters -- wow! -- of sidewalk and wonder why no one's is sipping $8 lattés on that sidewalk.
Why do some never grasp the possibilities in change, preferring to assume the worst. The Danforth BIA would do itself and its members a disservice by subscribing to such pessimism. Let's hope they have the imagination to conceive of the Danforth as much more desireable avenue.
Jennifer come on by the meeting Wednesday night and see for yourself: we're not out to make your world hell. Why would we? Most likely we're among your customers.
Seymore Bikes
Danforth Bike Lanes
Tue, 06/16/2009 - 20:45According to the City's Bike Plan presented at the Toronto Cycling Advisory Committee on May 11, there are four options being considered regarding the addition of Bike Lanes on Danforth Ave. between Broadview & Victoria Park.
None of these options calls for the removal of any vehicle lane; did someone suggest that it did, or are we just speculating here?
Jimmy McNulty (not verified)
@Luke There's no arguing with
Tue, 06/16/2009 - 21:46@Luke
There's no arguing with your concept, but where the analogy falls apart is that Avenue Rd. is a major artery that serves much more traffic than Bloor St (near Yonge)
I'm sure the Danforth would just love to have the foot traffic and narrow streets similar to Kensington Market or the Beaches, which are bustling with foot traffic, but unfortunately, the Danforth (and Greektown) have the geographic disadvantage in this case in that they are placed square on one of the BUSIEST arteries going in and out of downtown.
If the City of Toronto can deliver on a plan that would NOT reduce parking or remove the center turning lane (which is also required for deliveries to businesses), then I don't think any BIA would have a problem.
Personally, I feel that to integrate bike lanes without changing parking or removing the center lane will be no safer than the current situation - nothing gained, nothing lost, but the danger of being doored would remain. It is because of this danger that I don't see how the City can do it without affecting things. If I'm wrong, I'll be happy to put this issue to rest.
@AnnieD
You said "So if you will only support bikelanes if there is no impact on traffic and parking, then you are esentially against bikelanes."
I recall George Bush used a similar argument when he claimed that if you're not with the US to fight in Iraq, then you were effectively on the side of the terrorists.
Wake up and smell the shades of grey!
Luke Siragusa
Re: @Luke There's no arguing with...
Wed, 06/17/2009 - 00:05The contrast between Avenue Rd. and Yorkville's sidestreets was noted only to illustrate the effects of giving over the public realm exclusively to automobiles. I think we both agree that it has a tendency to kill the vitality of a neighbourhood. Nothing controversial there.
As it concerns Danforth what you see as a disadvantage, its geography, can be seen otherwise. Bloor St. East/West (Church to Avenue) is the flip side of your contention and makes the point. It is also a major arterial leading to the heart of the city but it is now adopting a deliberate policy of eliminating parking and enlarging the pedestrian realm.
The real point here isn't the fifth lane, bike lanes and parking, it's the quality of the streetscape and how it contributes to the neighbourhood. If the chief priority is to move metal through the vicinity then there will never be enough lanes be they for parking, speeding or turning. If the intent is to create vitality and activity, then guess what, some of that space will have to be reassigned for the purpose.
There's no reason why the Danforth should be limited by the status quo. Cannot we, as residents and businesses, play a part in determining the nature of our neighbourhood? The folks on Bloor St. East have; so have they on Jarvis and Roncesvalles. And now on John street too.
But of course we should be realistic: you can't have something for nothing. Expecting to benefit from a vibrant streetscape, intent on luring pedestrians, cyclists and motorists, without affecting maximal automotive throughput is like asking for improvement without change.
Sure you can try. Things may not get worse. They certainly won't get better.
AnnieD
Let me rephrase then
Wed, 06/17/2009 - 08:29"So if you will only support bikelanes on Danforth if there is no impact on traffic and parking, then you are essentially against bikelanes on Danforth." You make my case in your own post: "I don't see how the City can do it without affecting things" - and in your own black and white version of the world, you will not accept any compromise where drivers might be affected "a bit". I will grant that you may actually be very supportive of bikelanes - on empty side streets, or in Amsterdam - that's not what we're talking about here.
Tommy Carcetti (not verified)
@SeymourBikes Can you please
Tue, 06/16/2009 - 21:55@SeymourBikes
Can you please provide a link to the study/report you mentioned? I'm only finding conflicting information.
In the only 'official' report I could find (Toronto Bike Plan - New Strategic Directions - May 25, 2009), there is this passage:
"Transportation Services has completed a preliminary evaluation of existing parking and
traffic conditions and potential bikeway design options for the Bloor-Danforth corridor,
with the goal of maintaining the existing parking and traffic capacity. Given the varying
conditions on Bloor Street and Danforth Avenue, it is not feasible to accommodate a
consistent bikeway design along the entire corridor and maintain the existing parking
supply and traffic capacity."
Source: www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2009/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-21588.pdf
Seymore Bikes
Bike Plan
Tue, 06/16/2009 - 23:04I don't see a copy of the Toronto Bike Plan presentation (TCAC May 11/09) online, but you could probably get one from the Toronto Cycling Advisory Committee, try contacting Frank Baldassini at fbalda@toronto.ca
You could also go the Community Meeting on Wednesday, June 17 @ 6:30pm - East York Community Centre (Pape Ave); see the Events Listing above.
toddtyrtle
Complaining and perspective
Wed, 06/17/2009 - 10:08Just a thought: Jennifer mentions that many patrons complain about parking on the Danforth. My questions are these:
And somewhat related to cycling: Does the BIA or anyone for that matter know what modes of transportation customers are even using? Sure, it looks like cars are the biggest mode but of course they would. A car, that often carries a single passenger takes up 100 square feet of parking or road space. A bike takes a fraction of that space. For example as I recall, the Big Carrot's bike parking can handle about 10-15 bikes - 100-150 linear feet of parking at full capacity. Add to that the number of folks coming on foot either from subway stops or walking from their homes.
In my opinion, the idea that everyone is coming by car is based less on fact and more on appearances. (a pretty good illustration of this may be found in this poster showing space taken up by each mode share: http://www.flickr.com/photos/azaraskin/3342003343/sizes/o/)
Or to look at it a different way: Just how many patrons can be held in the on-street parking between say, Pape and Chester. According to google maps there's about 1900 feet between those two streets. Let's take off 300 linear feet for intersections, driveways, etc leaving 1600 linear feet of parking (3200 feet with both sides). We're talking about roughly 320 parking spaces. How much of this can be absorbed by off-street parking and a change to mode-share brought about by the addition of cycling infrastructure?
I wonder also if classism plays a part. Is there a feeling that people who choose to buy a car are more likely to spend money in a store than someone coming by bike? And if so, does that mean that we should make our policies to cater only to those who spend the most money?
Seymore Bikes
Bike or Walk the Talk
Wed, 06/17/2009 - 10:33According to the 2006 Census, 56% of commuters in Toronto-Danforth get to and from work without using their car - don't you think they could manage to shop on the Danforth as well?
http://www3.thestar.com/static/googlemaps/starmaps.html?xml=080830_commu...
toddtyrtle
Playing devil's advocate
Wed, 06/17/2009 - 12:56Seymore:
Just to play the devil's advocate here, a few questions came to mind:
On the other hand, another question to ask is: Will the customers go away if they lose their parking or will they just change modes?
Stringer Bell (not verified)
Having managed a store on the
Wed, 06/17/2009 - 23:50Having managed a store on the Danforth, I think it is safe to say that customers coming by vehicle are likely to spend more money. This is not because they chose a car, but because they have greater ability to bring their purchase home with them. With regards to restaurants (which is HUGE business for the Danforth and Greektown), the area is very much a destination. I can't imagine a family of four riding their bikes down on a Wednesday night for dinner at Asteria. You can also forget about casual dinner out with the wife/husband riding their bikes over for dinner.
For the businesses that do not automatically necessitate cars, it is often because of the convenience, and thus will be more frequented by neighbourhood clientele (Loblaw's, Carrot Common). That portion of the clientele may very well ride their bikes, but because they live in the neighbourhood, they are in fact likelier to use the side streets.
Regarding the number of passengers in a car - yes, 1 per car is inefficient - that's the nature of cars and their size. How is it relevant to the issue of bike lanes if there's 1 person per car, or it's a clown car filled with 30 people? We're not talking about swapping parking spots for bike racks.
Car driving customers are buying anything from a pair of shoes to a 40lb computer system, to a 200lb sofabed. Whether they can carry it on their bikes or not is a moot point - that's the customer's choice
To answer your last question - if parking becomes more and more difficult to find, then YES, some customers WILL go elsewhere. Go check out the parking lot at Yorkdale on any given afternoon. It may only be 10% of customers who don't shop there anymore, but for a lot of small businesses that are just getting by - a 10% loss in business can make a HUGE difference.
Seymore Bikes
Two Bits on Shopping
Thu, 06/18/2009 - 09:191) "if parking becomes more and more difficult to find, then YES, some customers WILL go elsewhere"
Imagine if everyone who currently bikes to shop on Danforth suddenly switched to full size SUVs - to your point, there would be a drop off in the number of overall shoppers as a result of less parking. Bikes are a stable form of clientele and remember, that you can park about 8 bikes in the same space as one car
2) "think it is safe to say that customers coming by vehicle are likely to spend more money"
Maybe that is true, but only on a per trip basis. Shopping by bike is easy & unaffected by traffic or parking, so cyclists make more frequent visits. A study by the Clean Air Partnership released earlier this year made this very point in their assessment of Bloor West Village.
Seymore Bikes
Data on Danforth
Thu, 06/18/2009 - 09:56Sorry TT - I don't have all the answers, but I would suggest that restaurant patrons tend to drive, as do those visiting the medical clinic and eye doctor.
I'd like to challenge shops like Rogers, Sun Valley, the LCBO and Book City, to promote bike shopping, or even offer incentives.
To your last question, the Taste of the Danforth cuts parking spots out considerably, and people do switch to the TTC, maybe we need to remind ourselves that there is a subway running directly underneath these shops.
toddtyrtle
RE: Data on Danforth
Thu, 06/18/2009 - 10:23I agree with your suggestions, but still without actual independently gathered survey data we're all relying basically on our belief systems, faith, and the judgments we make as viewed through them. At that point it becomes completely analogous to religion. Both sides cite their scripture, condemn the others and speak of the utopia that will come once everyone's converted. Fundamentalists get nasty about it while others debate more academically.
What I can say unequivocally, though, is that I doubt there is one cyclist who wants to cycle down a Danforth filled with empty shops. Everyone wants a vibrant urban space shared safely by people of all types. What we're disagreeing on is the means of getting there.
Many cyclists are pretty sure of what they want in this respect - a contiguous east-west route across Toronto (same as drivers want). I am among those who want this, and would prefer that this not be delivered in the form of a lane next to parking with doors opening into my path. It is my belief (here comes the religion part) that providing that will bring more customers in the form of cyclists into the various BIAs along the way and that business impact will be minimal.
BIAs are also pretty sure of what they want: to stay in business and believe that providing space for cyclists at the expense of parking will have a huge negative impact on their business. Do the BIAs have any concrete idea of what they would say yes to? Is there something they would agree to that would provide increased safety?
So without data we all go back to our holy books and our prayer circles and make our offerings to the gods of government. I don't think this is going to get us far and is likely to leave at least one party feeling screwed in the end.
A crazy idea occurs to me, brought in part by Dan Egan's discussion last night about the use of signed routes to hold together the network. I haven't considered this more than a few minutes but thought I'd toss this idea out: What about dedicated lanes (out of door zone) where this can be accommodated, and where it can't fit in without impacting parking, the right lane in each direction becomes a full-time diamond (3 or more passengers iin a car or bike) lane. Not an ideal situation but maybe a workable compromise? This could provide drivers in the Danforth (notoriously bike-hostile from what I've heard) with a clear message that bikes are welcome in the traffic lane.
As I said, just a thought and not completely thought out but I figured I'd toss it out to see what happens.
Avon Barksdale (not verified)
As mentioned in the reply
Wed, 06/17/2009 - 23:55As mentioned in the reply below - I managed a biz on the Danforth for a few years. Yes - neighbourhood residents do shop locally, but these are often not enough to keep the business afloat. Ask any Danforth store owner where they'd be if they had to rely exclusively on neighbourhood business, and you'll get the same answer: Out of Business (rare exceptions will apply, so don't bother pointing them out).
To address someone else's question - business owners get complaints about parking all the time (twice a week at the very least). Complaints about bike parking on the Danforth or Bike access to the Danforth? I personally remember 2 instances over the course of 3+ years.
Dramaturge (not verified)
"Exclusive" neighbourhoods like the Danforth
Thu, 06/18/2009 - 14:47You're bang on Avon.
Sure The Danforth between Broadview and Pape is vibrant, and locals often shop there - but it's outsiders who make it thrive. Your lack of local shoppers point is very strong when you look at The Danforth to Coxwell and beyond.
Those fine upstanding six-figure income folks who live north and south of the Danforth east of Pape obviously fear to tread on the strip in their very own neighbourhood - Around Donlands many stores are boarded up and just about every store struggles to survive with just new Canadians frequenting the shops. The Star has examined this a number of times.
Don't let those Riverdale yuppies tell you any different. They drive their kids two blocks to school just like the folks in the suburbs. They are sadly not really that interested in their merchant neighbours either, unless they sell driveway stones to convert your front yard to pad parking, or sell lumber to build and hide behind 8' tall fenced-in back yards.
You're going to hear a lot in the next few weeks about the need for bike lanes from the supposed "greenies" living in Riverdale - Tell them to give up one of their cars - and they'll be plenty of room for visitors parking and bike lanes.
toddtyrtle
Substance?
Thu, 06/18/2009 - 15:16Not a very convincing argument, Dramaturge, without substance to back it up. To me it looks like one person's opinion delivered in an inflammatory and insulting fashion.
I would also point out again the study of mode share for customers in the Annex. Only 16% of customers from outside the neighbourhood are coming by car. Until you can show me data proving otherwise for the Danforth I remain unconvinced.
Try again with a few more facts and a little less name calling and maybe we'll get somewhere.
Seymore Bikes
The Visitor
Thu, 06/18/2009 - 18:53The LCBO, the Fast Food joints, the Convenience stores & Grocery stores, the Video stores, the Coffee Shops, the Banks, the Bars & Pubs, The Dental-Medical & Optical offices, the Fitness centres, etc... are mostly (if not fully) supported by the local residents - that also includes the people living in the lovely homes near Broadview & Danforth.
Seymore Bikes
double post
Thu, 06/18/2009 - 15:20double post
Bunk Moreland (not verified)
Last point about Classism It
Thu, 06/18/2009 - 00:06Last point about Classism
It really bothers me to suggest that to cater to clients who have money is somehow wrong.
The point of a business IS TO EARN MONEY.
This means that we must do what we can to cater to people who have money to spend.
We'll accept cash from whoever offers it. If you believe that this is wrong or evil, please, give your head a shake.
I doubt there are many businesses on the Danforth that are so rolling in cash that they can afford to turn away customers based on such ridiculous criteria.
toddtyrtle
A few notes
Thu, 06/18/2009 - 00:52Regarding families of four dining out:
I agree - currently with infrastructure being the way it is, many (though not all) families choose not to bike to destinations in the city. This does not mean they came by car.
Regarding complaining about bike paring:
I don't believe I ever suggested that people complain about bike parking. My point is that it is taken as a given that cycling the Danforth can be a harrowing and unsafe experience for many. While it might occur to a motorist to complain to a businessperson about parking, you are unlikely to hear about the very real issue of safe cycling.
Regarding "Clown cars":
My point was in reference to the number of shoppers that on-street parking on the Danforth actually brings. The number of patrons that 300-odd spaces (from my Pape to Chester example) is able to cycle is dependent upon how full those cars are. (Parenthetically, how many people does the subway bring in?)
Regarding classism:
My point here is that people are placing a value on the lives and safety of people cycling through the neighbourhood based on the amount they are willing to spend in a store. That is ridiculous. In other words: if you're not spending money you can FOAD (possibly literally). Cater to clients all you want in your store but the public space should cater to all the public, not just those who want to buy stuff at your store.
A final point:
At this point everyone is speaking based on speculation. I speculate that with 56% of people in the neighbourhood not using cars and a region sitting directly on top of a major subway route people who park on street represent a small percentage of the total number of patrons. BIA members speculate that most every customer that matters comes in a car (better shut down the subway stations on the Danforth on the weekends - nobody really uses them after all). But the bottom line is there needs to be actual data: data regarding current mode-share for Danforth customers, data regarding utilization levels for off-street parking (if # of empty spaces off-street is close to # of on-street spaces there is no issue.
I'm also very curious about individual store owners' feelings about the addition of a bike lane to Bloor. I want to know which stores and restaurants no longer need my patronage.
Luke Siragusa
A parting word on the Danforth.
Thu, 06/18/2009 - 13:29Last night's meeting was a great success. (Rundown to follow this weekend.) It was a pleasure to meet and listen to contributors to this forum, City staff, fellow advocates, and, yes, members of one of the local BIAs. Thanks for showing up folks.
It was a success not necessarily because anything was solved but because in part it underscored to all attendees that there are divergent interests, all with legitimate concerns about a Danforth makeover. That may not sound like much, but it is crucial to remember and respect each other's positions, lest we all go at each other in a collective headbutt. Who the hell needs that headache?
Look around Toronto and you'll see more than a few neighbourhoods remaking themselves. This is a great opportunity. And we should embark on it in a spirit of civility and enthusiasm.
anil_j (not verified)
BIA
Fri, 06/19/2009 - 10:24Luke,
I agree that we should take a co-operative approach to dealing with local BIAs when it comes to building bicycle lanes. I was also glad to see that they attended the east end cyclists' meeting. I do feel that they got off a little easy though. At the meeting they publicly said they support bicycle lanes, and support cyclists (even have friends who ride bikes), but are concerned about traffic flow and parking. I think this is a legitimate position for a BIA to take (although perhaps short-sighted), however the following statement from their website tells a different story:
"With a city budget that cannot afford to keep public pools and libraries, the proposed bike lanes city wide would cost in the tens of millions of dollars (proposed bike lanes on Jarvis alone is estimated at $6.35 Million). Both residents and businesses (taxed at 5 times the residential rate) are certain to see an increase in taxes to fund this project."
This states that bike infrastructure (on Danforth or elsewhere) is a poor use of public resources, contradicts their claim of supporting bike lanes, and is quite frankly inflammatory.
On the other hand, the entire petition, including the statement above, has now been removed from their web page. I hope this is a sign that the dialog between cyclists and the BIA has been effective, and will maintain a positive tone in the future.
Svend
Removing the parking from
Thu, 06/18/2009 - 18:34Removing the parking from just one side will be a plus for merchants as well as cyclists. Putting in 2 bike lanes would actually increase the total lanes of traffic.
I don't think we can deny most Danforth merchants depend on drivers, after all the parking spaces are usually full. But do they see a drop in business during rush hour when the parking is taken away for a few hours?
The business association should recognize that making the street more cyclist and pedestrian friendly will bring in customers as well. Reducing the speed and narrowing the wide car lanes will make the Danforth less of a highway and make it more appealing to tourists and people that live in the area alike.
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