©Toronto | Biking in Kensington Market
(Photo: ardenstreet
The Star last week counted cyclists at stop signs and found: " We watched 159 cyclists approach a busy intersection. Only 21 came to a full stop." Despite making motorists crazy and being illegal some make a counter-argument for the rolling stop, also called the Idaho Stop:
The rolling stop – or, in some cycling circles, the Idaho Stop – is as popular as it is illegal, and there are those who will tell you it's also perfectly safe. Bambrick, among other cycling supporters and bloggers, is advocating its legalization, citing common sense and a compelling precedent.
Cyclists in Idaho have been legally permitted to treat stop signs as yield signs since 1982. And though the Idaho law was brought in by legislators to help relieve the pressure on a crowded traffic-court system, cycling-savvy proponents of its further spread argue it would make cycling more efficient, more appealing and ultimately more popular. In places bent on curbing car usage, it's a compelling argument.
There was a flurry of letters supporting and opposing the Idaho Stop. One argued "zero tolerance" and that bicycles are vehicles under the Highway Traffic Act:
In this, the police should set an example and prosecute more often. The "zero tolerance" policy has been proven to work exceptionally well in the few places it has been pursued rigorously.
Joe LaFortune (commenter on this forum), argued that rolling stops by cyclists are no big danger compared to motorists doing the same. Cyclists need to maintain momentum yet are relegated to quieter residential streets with an abundance of stop signs.
While the offence may be identical for both vehicle users on paper, it really is not the same thing. Cyclists in Toronto tend to use one-way residential streets for the bulk of their riding, avoiding main roads whenever possible. Traffic is simply too heavy and too fast on major arterials and motorists regularly fail to afford cyclists the space they are legally entitled to, making it unsafe except for experienced cyclists.
Residential streets, the preferred routes for many if not most cyclists, feature stop signs at every cross street for the most part, but there is usually little or no cross traffic. A cyclist rolling through a quiet intersection is capable of stopping within a meter of applying brakes as the average bike is only travelling at about 15 km/h and weighs less than 10 kilograms.
Another argued that full stops for cyclists slows traffic:
The Idaho Stop is indeed interesting and, for many, safer. De-cleating, de-clipping and coming to a full stop means that a cyclist ends up rolling through an intersection at a much slower speed, which slows traffic and offers less safety to the cyclist. I hope you will run the same study on motor vehicles.
When cycling, I nearly always try to go through an intersection next to a car (safer) and the number that come to a full stop is close to zero. More and more cars, in Ottawa at least, jump orange and red lights, roll (not to a stop) through stop signs and cut cyclists off on corners.
One commenter went out and did the work of the Toronto Star by counting motorists:
Inspired by the article, I went out to a four-way stop near my home and counted the number of automobiles that came to a full and complete stop over two hours. Result: of 72 cars, zero came to a full stop. So, by this reasoning, cyclists on average do a better job at stop signs than car drivers.
He concluded that "it is high time to replace all stop signs with yield signs and roundabouts at four-way stop intersections and stop this ridiculous and fruitless debate about who did or did not stop totally or maybe kept rolling a couple of inches, and focus on measures that actually boost safety."
Kathy Hall countered that Toronto is much bigger than Idaho, and where Idaho stops may work in Boise, they won't work here. Instead we should focus on education for cyclists:
The ideal would be that all cyclists using Toronto's streets take a course similar to Humber College's motorcycle training program. Many of the safety and defensive techniques taught to would-be motorcyclists in a course like this would make cyclists much more aware of the road and traffic conditions around them.
The problem seems to be that cyclists don't see themselves as being on a vehicle. If we can educate them, at the same time as educating drivers to be more aware of them, we might see a decline in cyclist/car accidents.
Comments
locutas_of_spragge
definition of a stop
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 18:43One question I haven't seen clarified: how did the Start count cyclists as stopping? We've seen that in many cases the police and others insist that cyclists have only "stopped" if we have lost our balance and had to put a foot down. Aside from the fact that cyclists can and do keep our balance at a full stop, and for that matter put a foot down without actually stopping, a car has only certainly stopped if the driver puts the vehicle in park, locking the transaxle. Simply applying the brakes won't do it. And I'd like to bet that of the vehicles that stopped at the intersection the Star reporter monitored, not one driver put their car in park. So I'd like to know what standard for determining whether a bike had stopped the Star applied.
electric
... when all forward momentum has ceased.
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 21:35That is how the definition is applied to automobiles. I was quite surprised to learn that the law requires a cyclist to put a foot down in order to be legally qualified as having stopped.
I once heard a Sgt say(otr) that stop signs, particularly in residential areas, are really only there to slow drivers down and force them to observe the intersection. There is rarely a point to stopping at them putting your car in park or putting your foot down - assuming you're not completely anal retentive. So why the draconian treatment for cyclists from Toronto police hiding behind bushes at your local stop sign.
There are so many stop signs in various residential areas that the sign itself has lost value. Such overuse has basically turned the stop sign into a yield sign, since in many cases it is likely a yield sign would have sufficed where a stop sign was placed, drivers discover this fact and then treat the sign like a yield which causes problems. Cyclists are just behaving in a relative(risk wise) manner to the motoring public when they treat a stop sign as a yield.
However, that is just my opinion ;)
Kevin (not verified)
Roundabouts and stops
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 19:39Having spent some time in a country where roundabouts, or traffic circles are commonplace, I can wholeheartedly agree with the fact that we should have them here. The downside is that the accident rate would increase exponentially because drivers here have no clue. It would be akin to making the 401 2 ways in both directions on each set of lanes. People would not know how to respond.
That being said, I agree with Georges comments that the distinction of a cyclist stop and a cars stop is not the same. I also believe that 95% of cyclist do cycle safer than cars drive. I do both. And as a car driver, I see much more dangerous activities coming from cars than from bikes. They have different standards for the vehicles. That is expected due to the way they work. However as a car driver, I can honestly admit that 90% of the time I speed. Not by Much, but if its a 60 zone, I usually drive a bit faster. And I dare any car driver to be put under a polygraph that claims they don't speed. Ever.
There is a distinction between 2 tons of metal and 35 lbs of bike. Either one can maim, injure and kill, but you have to be insane to think that the bike can do more damage. It doesnt matter what you drive, be it bike, car, moped or 18 wheeler. You have to remember what your vehicle can do unless YOU take precautions. Not just for yourself, but others.
As cyclists, we are deemed under law to be operating a vehicle. And we must act as such, take the precautions to protect ourselves and others. And yes, no matter what we drive, we will break laws. Its a fact. So instead of arguing about it, why don't we resign ourselves to be the best we can be no matter what perspective vehicle we are operating.
Xander (not verified)
STOPTIONAL signs
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 20:04i always thought of a STOP sign as a " STOPTIONAL sign" idaho stop sounds so american....but i love their potatoes... (sorry PEI)
Rantwick (not verified)
Ticket away.
Mon, 08/10/2009 - 22:13I will gladly pay tickets for failing to stop, just as soon as cyclists also get ticketed for riding on the sidewalk, and cars get tickets for overtaking too close. Counting "rolling stops" is such a silly idea anyway... blowing through red lights is what I think most people care about.
stop : the insanity (not verified)
Toronto vs the world
Tue, 08/11/2009 - 09:33Ok you geniuses, stop your bitching and start a movement to change the law. It's that easy.
Roundabouts work great in Peoples Republic Of China, Hong Kong, and Thailand. Traffic there is way better than here in Toronto. I've rode lots of Chinese and Thai pavement, without incident. The only time I was ever in a collision with an automobile was right here in Toronto, struck by one driver who wasn't paying attention. At a crosswalk, no less. With more reflective gear on than a bus. So what does that say? That says it has nothing to do with infrastructure, and everything to do with skill. Our drivers suck compared to other places like Beijing, Hong Kong, Bangkok, and even Idaho.
What we need to do is change the laws so that driving requires months and months of study, technical instruction, and a harder test than we have now. And forget graduated licences - we need 3 year testing. Funny how I have to recertify my First Aid, Scissor Lift, and forklift licenses every few years - but drive a car - hey, buy the Cheerios from the MTO, get the piece of paper. pfft.
Dude's point about turning the 401 into multilane traffic is pefect - and guess what - it happens every time it rains. The pavement becomes slick, the visibility declines, and stopping distances get a lot shorter. But do drivers slow the f**k down? NO! 110 km/h no matter what, and that speaks loud and clear to LACK OF SKILL and GOOD JUDGEMENT. Fix that, and you'll have safer roads.
electric
TCU is working on it...
Tue, 08/11/2009 - 20:46Support the TCU if you approve!
I'm a bit embarrassed for you though, Canadian drivers are among the safer road users in the world, Finnish drivers probably being the best(they are schooled quite intensely in programs that make our drivers test look like kindergarten).
Further, it would take but a moments glance at some of the accident statistics from places like China and Thailand to see that your subjective experience of those roads was lucky. Chinese highway fatalities are, percentage wise, happening at about the same rate as 1950s American highway fatalities - this is pretty high.
Excert from WHO Report
Anyways, before you profess the skill of drivers in other countries maybe you should take a look at the bigger picture. It may be that the skilled drivers are the only ones who survive long enough... the rest could be in the ground or disabled in a hospital. Not a very efficient way to run things.
I agree that many sheeple on the 401/400 aren't very smart... every year you hear about 30 car pileups in the fog or white-outs. I think if we had stricter requirements on licensing things would defiantly be safer. Too often people think it's a right to drive, an experience that could change for them if they were forced into an intensive gov't driver-training and certification program.
jason (not verified)
what section in the HTA
Tue, 08/11/2009 - 12:58Can anyone point to the section of the Highway Traffic Act requiring cyclists to put a foot down in order to have completed a stop?
Thanks.
vic
Foot down not required
Tue, 08/11/2009 - 13:16There is no requirement to put a foot down. Not in the HTA, not in any bylaws that I'm aware of. Maybe in other jurisdictions, but certainly not here.
"Stop" means what it means: Stop forward motion.
The "foot down" thing is probably just an interpretation from some police officers. If you challenged it in court, I'm sure you could easily win, assuming that you actually did come to a complete stop without putting a foot down.
I'm one of the few road users (motorists, police officers, etc. included) who actually stop at stop signs. I usually don't bother unclipping or putting a foot down.
I have even been honked at by motorists behind me because I came to a complete stop, thereby delaying the line of cars that were rolling the stop sign.
jason (not verified)
@vic: Thanks.
Tue, 08/11/2009 - 16:48@vic: Thanks.
Tim Burrows (not verified)
Foot Down at stops
Sun, 08/16/2009 - 11:25Vic is right on with his answer. There is no requirement to put your foot or feet down at stop signs or red lights.
Section 136 and Section 144 govern stopping your vehicle under certain circumstances In neither section is putting a foot down required. The requirement is that you stop. I have seen lots of cyclists and motorcyclists do this without putting feet down.
If you want to ensure that you are seen as stopping, a foot down is a great idea.
If you ever have any questions regarding traffic safety, traffic laws or general information and you can't find the answer here contact me at tsvcommunicationsoffice@torontopolice.on.ca
Mad Jack McMad (not verified)
Why not stop? It doesn't
Tue, 08/11/2009 - 13:01Why not stop? It doesn't take that much time out of your day, and actually improves your strength and cycling ability. It's called "interval training".
As far as "zero tolerance" is concerned, I'd be happy to see "zero tolerance" for cars making rolling stops as well, not to mention cars in bike lanes, turning without signaling or half a dozen other acts committed by drivers that are a nuisance to other drivers but a threat to cyclists and pedestrians. And yes, please ticket cyclists riding on the sidewalk.
Kevin (not verified)
Signal lights a drivers
Tue, 08/11/2009 - 18:04Now this struck me. Why aren't there Turn Signals on bikes? Easy! Cars don't use them, so whats the point? :-P
Seriously. I wonder what would happen if you took your car out and ONLY used hand signals? I don't think anyone would notice that your were not using your blinkers, and would wonder who your flippin off through the window.
I would be happy to take the tickets too for not complete stops if they nailed the drivers that don't signal.This is my bigest pet peeve as a Car Driver.
Pierre Phaneuf (not verified)
the signal lever has been dipped in acid?!?
Sun, 08/23/2009 - 16:37I agree, both riding a bike and driving a car, drivers who don't use their signals are so bloody annoying. I mean, they require basically no effort at all (as opposed to coming to a full stop, or gesturing while riding one handed, say), what exactly is saved?
PedalPowerPat
And yes, please ticket
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 21:15Hmmmmmmmmm....
How about just the irresponsible ones.
I know of numerous cautious and responsible bike couriers who rely on the sidewalk to get out of dangerous traffic (dump-trucks are fun!), not go down a one-way or just generally cycle up to a door to save a few minutes of walk-time.
The fifteen-year-old snot nose punks who do 25 km/h on a sidewalk, they are the ones that deserve the tickets/punishment.
How about that fifteen year old who killed that woman on the sidewalk this week?
Not to be ageist but I do see a difference in riding style on sidewalks based on age.
Sorry to contradict the beginning of the previous sentence, but I feel it to be valid.
Many kids/youth are scared to go on the road so they treat the sidewalk as the road for kids.
Ben
age
Fri, 08/14/2009 - 12:20My S.O. was nudged by a sidewalk cyclist yesterday as he tried to squeeze by at a bottleneck.
In the ensuing conversation about his riding technique, he pointed out that he'd been riding on the sidewalks of Toronto for 27 years, and hadn't once been ticketed for it. We ventured the opinion that he should know better. He emphatically disagreed, and we parted ways.
Let this serve as a counterexample to your age-based sidewalk argument.
I support sidewalk riding only for kids, and only up to a certain speed.
Responsible adults shouldn't be riding on downtown sidewalks, or fast near pedestrians.
Hooman (not verified)
Great "Investigative" Report by The Star
Fri, 08/14/2009 - 23:42I love how the first sentence in the article is "We watched 159 cyclists approach a busy intersection". When someone says "busy" intersection, I think Yonge & Bloor, Dufferin & French, etc... instead this reporter watched a residential street in Kensington Market and called it a "busy" intersection, and somehow that made the first page of the Sunday Star. I'm guessing the Toronto Star is either running out of ideas for news stories, or they have some kind of agenda against bike riders (I guess that's what happens when half the newspaper is subsized by car ads complete with a dedicated "Wheels" section).
What next - an investigative report on how many people jay walk across Queen St? Or how about how many cars go over 100 km/h on the 401? While the Star was monitoring this "busy" intersection, why didn't they count how many cars didn't come to a complete stop too?
It's one thing to blow through a red light on a busy street in 905s, but when you're riding in the city through residential streets, use some common sense. If you slow down at a stop sign and see there's no one else waiting at the intersection, all stopping does is slow down the traffic behind you. That goes for both cars & bikes.
Hooman (not verified)
Great "Investigative" Report by The Star
Fri, 08/14/2009 - 23:57I love how the first sentence in the article is "We watched 159 cyclists approach a busy intersection". When someone says "busy" intersection, I think Yonge & Bloor, Dufferin & Finch, etc... instead this reporter watched a residential street in Kensington Market and called it a "busy" intersection, and somehow that made the first page of the Sunday Star. I'm guessing the Toronto Star is either running out of ideas for news stories, or they have some kind of agenda against bike riders (I guess that's what happens when half the newspaper is subsized by car ads complete with a dedicated "Wheels" section).
What next - an investigative report on how many people jay walk across Queen St? Or how about how many cars go over 100 km/h on the 401? While the Star was monitoring this "busy" intersection, why didn't they count how many cars didn't come to a complete stop too?
It's one thing to blow through a red light on a busy street in 905s, but when you're riding in the city through residential streets, use some common sense. If you slow down at a stop sign and see there's no one else waiting at the intersection, all stopping does is slow down the traffic behind you. That goes for both cars & bikes.
PedalPowerPat
My S.O. was nudged by a
Sat, 08/15/2009 - 08:54My gosh its infallible proof that age doesn't dictate responsibility or ability.
Gee wizz, got any other random life moments that fit your bias?
JuneAvery31 (not verified)
answer this topic
Sun, 05/16/2010 - 00:30That is known that cash can make us autonomous. But how to act when one doesn't have money? The only one way is to try to get the personal loans or small business loan.