Very few Torontonians attempt to bike across the 401. riconroy has crossed and has survived to give us a video of how little you'd want to repeat that experience. That being said, I've crossed it many times - I hate doing it every time but I can do it well.
Comments
dash (not verified)
My heart was beating a mile a
Wed, 08/12/2009 - 15:00My heart was beating a mile a minute, and it was only a video. These are exactly the sorts of situations where I bend the rules for my own safety. I would have used side walks and pedestrian crossings through that whole thing. I would have gladly accepted a ticket and the opportunity to tear everyone a new one in court too. totally worth the 110 bucks, imo.
G Wasik (not verified)
401, 403, 407,404, QEW
Wed, 08/12/2009 - 16:48Cyclists across Ontario risk their lives crossing the on and off ramps. These highways are a major barrier to safe cycling and deter many from cycling across their city.
In spite of Ontario government policy, such as the Growth Plan for the Greater Golden Horseshoe, requiring safe and comfortable bike networks across the province, MTO however, feels its overpasses are already safe. Ironically, MTO personnel told our cycling group, It is NOT advisable to cycle across overpasses.
At a bare minimum, coloured bike lanes are needed on these overpasses as a visual reminder to motorists daily that cyclists also use the overpasses.
avidrider (not verified)
man up and take your lane
Wed, 08/12/2009 - 17:02puhleez. pop a viagra, cialis, or midol...whatever it takes to boost your confidence, and take a damn lane. build a bridge, don't complain about it!
you who complain about such matters have probably never taken a CAN-BIKE lesson, or even considered asking an expert what they think. You just immediately gripe and complain instead of attempting to improve your skill. whine. yawn.
You know who is entitled to ride on the sidewalk? Children. You know why? because we know for a fact they havn't been educated in road cycling, and aren't developed enough to provide the muscle power needed to keep up to at least 20 km/h. That, my dear riders, puts you in a very interesting and vulnerable category.
Those of us who ride across the 401, 400, and even - aiigh, heaven forbid - the Don Valley Parkway, know it's about taking the lane, shoulder checking to let drivers approaching know that you are predictable and aware of what's happening, and holding a steady line to state "I'm here, I'm traffic, move to the left and go around me." It's that simple. Duh.
If you can't chant this mantra with me and get into the position that will carry you across any merge/diverge on a bicycle...take the bus. The rest of Toronto's able cyclists don't want you on the road.
arrgh. get over it already.
geoffrey
http://sockpuppet.ca/xray hel
Wed, 08/12/2009 - 21:13http://sockpuppet.ca/xray
hello mr stimulant vendor. I'd taken the lane. I was hit from behind anyway.
When I find the asshat who did it I will probably go to jail. Now go put your trike back in mommy's garage and shut the door neatly. We don't need yet another tragic child garage door incident.
herb
macho men
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 08:45I'm guessing your approach, avidrider, is to keep cycling a small group of hardcore, macho men.
I'd like to take a novel approach: let's make cycling safe and comfortable enough for children and the elderly. Can you imagine a grandmother safely and comfortably navigating these roads, merges and diverges? I don't think so.
I happen to teach CAN-BIKE. It does not recommend people "take the lane" on fast arterial roads. You are free to do what you wish on roads like Keele, featured in the video, but don't base your approach on CAN-BIKE. CAN-BIKE only recommends people take the lane on narrow lanes where cars are at urban speeds - at about 50 km/h or under. When it comes to suburban and rural arterial roads with cars driving at least 60 km/h CAN-BIKE recommends that cyclists always ride about 1/3 metre or 1 foot away from the lane edge.
Ben
another factor
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 09:47It's not just the 400 highway barriers that make cycling from one end of the city to the other difficult. The distance is a problem too.
I'm all for Herb's suggestion to make the city safe for children and elderly cyclists, but we should try to make it bikeable too. This probably means bike racks, which I believe the TTC is doing a good job of implementing so far.
:)
dash (not verified)
Taking the lane on a regular
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 13:17Taking the lane on a regular low speed road is dangerous enough. I wouldn't dare try it on a high speed over-pass. It's not about being a man, it's about being an intelligent person. Motorists are never going to expect to see a cyclist in the middle of their lane, and at high speeds, the reaction time is minuscule.
Tanya Q (not verified)
taking the lane is safer
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 15:10When the lane is narrow, as most downtown roads are, crowding towards the gutter encourages motorists to pass you too closely. They just don't realize how much space there is when they pass. Taking the lane sends a clear signal that they need to change lanes in order to pass. Of course a motorist is going to notice a cyclist (well get lights at night - DUH) in the middle of the lane in front of them.
If you are unsure of this fact use a mirror and watch to see if upcoming traffic slows down or changes lanes. You could always make an escape to the curb otherwise.
On higher speed roads you don't want to be a gutter bunny as Herb suggests. You never want to be a gutter bunny, it leaves no room for escape. Ride out about a meter from the curb and watch in your mirror as traffic approaches. If it looks like someone is going to pass too closely, you have an extra metre of escape space where before you had zero.
herb
taking the lane is not always safer
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 16:32Taking the lane on high speed roads is dangerous. Tanya isn't suggesting taking the lane, of course, but leaving a bit of an escape of 1 metre. Quoting CAN-BIKE, I said that cyclists should only leave 1/3 metre or 1 foot from the lane edge. This is a compromise: you don't get as much of an escape as would be ideal but you at least stay mostly out of the way of cars whizzing by. It's not really being a "gutter bunny" but it's definitely not taking the lane.
The types of roads where this is appropriate includes all roads where the posted speed limit or the actual average speed is 60 km/h or more. It includes most rural roads as well as many suburban arterial roads, including Lakeshore, Keele, Jane, Birchmount, etc. That means where in slower downtown traffic you might take the lane because the lane is too narrow to fit a car and a bike side by side, on a similar width lane on a fast road you stay close to the lane edge.
Someone doesn't need to take CAN-BIKE's approach for everything, but you should at least know what the official position is of this national course.
AnnieD
Passing too close vs riding your tail
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 16:38Taking the lane doesn't spare you from driver misbehaviour, especially outside the core where drivers will ride your tail - this even though I ride at a decent speed (particularly considering I stick mostly to residential roads) and pull over at intersections to allow them to pass, so it's not as though they're stuck behind me for long stretches. Frankly, I'd rather have a clueless driver pass too close than an agressive driver ride my tail, and I mostly only take the lane when forced to in order to stay out of the door zone. When there are no parked cars, I only ride out enough from the curb that I don't have to go over sewer grates and I've had very very few uncomfortable passing situations - off the top of my head I can think of three. Outside the core, I've been out as far as Eglinton and the 427, Yonge and York Mills, and weekly to Eglinton and Bayview. One bad spot in the core is Bathurst heading North, across St. Clair where there's a little jog in the road. This one is a lose/lose situation - getting passed too close is a sure bet if you don't take the lane, but take the lane and the drivers get quite irate - lots of big trucks there too because of the construction. Now I just get across the intersection and wait on the corner for the light to turn red so that I can take my place at the back of the line of cars.
TL (not verified)
I'm not sure what I would
Wed, 08/12/2009 - 18:56I'm not sure what I would rather do in north toronto. Cross the 401 or get held at gun point. Anywhere near the 401 is terrifying.
I generally don't bike North of bloor. Scary stuff if you ask me.
Kevin Love
This video is an example of poor lane control
Wed, 08/12/2009 - 20:13This video makes an excellent case for cyclist education. The person taking the video is a classic "gutter bunny." This could be an educational video to show exactly why it is a very bad idea to fail to exercise proper lane control.
An excellent example of what not to do is provided at the 40 second mark. A cement truck passes the cyclist in the same lane and must have passed less than 25 cm from the bike. Scary.
But if the cyclist had been exercising proper lane control and riding in the primary position in the centre of the right lane, the exact same cement truck would have passed safely in one of the two passing lanes.
The same is true for on/off ramps. If I'm exercising proper lane control, I treat on-ramps exactly the same as a right turn lane. Stay out of them and stay in the primary position in the right lane.
I've probably travelled over the 401 over 30 times so far this year. I've never yet had a problem. For those who are having problems or lack the confidence to exercise proper lane control, I strongly recommend taking a CAN-BIKE course.
electric
I know riconroy didn't ask our opinion but.
Wed, 08/12/2009 - 21:02I'm totally agreeing he/she is playing "gutter bunny".
He/She should do themselves a favour, wear a high-vis vest(optional and somewhat geeky depending on your choice) then get themselves a meter from the curb(not optional). Do anything to stop traffic from coming so close. The wind from a passing large fast vehicle, such as a that speedy cement truck is enough to blow/tip you right over so your wheel bumps into the curb(which it's already too close to) and it's probably "game-over" after that.
Just walk it, or "schluff" it using the sidewalk(no shame in that).
Anyways, I like the premise behind the video. Highway interchanges are exceedingly dangerous places for cyclists. I only know of one safe spot to cross the 401 and that is just west of SQ1 in Mississauga where they've installed an actual bike lane. There are no interchanges on that road though...
Also, if the 401 cuts Toronto in half i'd say the northern part is a no-man's land for urban cyclists.
Tanya Q (not verified)
401 without ramps.
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 11:14There are numerous spots to cross the 401 in Toronto that do not involve on and off ramps. Both the Don trail and the Humber trail go under the 401! In the east end, Birchmount has no ramps. In the west, follow the Toronto cycling map - there are suggestions at Wendell and Jane for instance. And although Avenue has ramps, its a fairly tame way to get across.
herb
ignore their advice: be a "gutter bunny" on fast roads
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 10:28I'm going to expand on my other comment. There are times to "take the lane" and there are times not to take the lane. Keele, for most of its length falls into the latter category. Traffic is too fast and is unable to respond quickly enough to a cyclist that is trying to stake a claim to the whole lane. Any cyclist who is doing that would need to keep going at 50+ km/h, otherwise you'd risk a distracted motorist coming up quickly behind you, failing to see you until it is too late.
If you took a CAN-BIKE course from me I'd be telling you to stay near the edge of the lane. Do not try to take the lane on fast arterial roads!
But I'd also tell you to keep a straight line and stay in the lane that goes through when crossing diverging lanes. Don't dip in and out. But this requires some good shoulder-checking that cars exiting know you're going straight.
There you go, a quick CAN-BIKE lesson. That will be $0.02.
Tanya Q (not verified)
Never be a "gutter bunny"
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 15:16It leaves no room to escape. And using a mirror can prevent having to frequently shoulder check as well as keeping an eye on approaching traffic.
On multi-lane roads, overtaking vehicles can and should change lanes to pass. Even at higher speeds, when the sight lines are clear, drivers can see what is ahead of them in time. Using the mirror allows you to verify this is happening and have an escape if someone is texting or otherwise unlawfully out to lunch.
Cpt_Sunshine
Riding a foot away from the curb is foolish
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 19:11If you ride that close to the curb you will definitely have to contend with sewer grates at best, and terrible road conditions at worst. In my opinion, you never ever want to ride over sewer grates, certainly if you ride with skinny tires. There are too many of the old school grates that have the slits parallel to the street and having your tire slip into a grate results in a guaranteed face plant. Not to mention they are like ice if it is raining.
So given that you don't want to ride over sewer grates, and you don't want to be weaving in and out of the lane to avoid sewer grates, the closest you want to ride to the curb is the slightly more than the width of a sewer grate. This is at least 2 feet, more like 2.5 feet. I tell people to ride at least an arms length away from the curb or as I like to put it "If you can clothesline a pedestrian - you're too close"
In my experience, I have also found your logic that staying a foot away from the curb will "keep you out of the way of cars whizzing by" is deeply flawed. I think most people here will agree that one rule cyclists can live by (in some cases quite literally) is that drivers will take whatever space you give them. Staying a foot away from the curb allows cars to pass you without altering their path. If anything this assures they will whiz by you.
I'm with Tanya on this one. I feel much safer having some room on my right to go in case of emergency. I also agree with Kevin's later comment, that the further out in the lane you are the more visible to drivers you are. Visibility is the key to safe cycling.
Darren_S
Flawed assumption
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 20:18"...that the further out in the lane you are the more visible to drivers you are..."
This is of course the driver is actually paying attention to the road. Study after study shows that drivers are simply not paying attention to the road. It is kind of hard to support your statement that you will be seen if the evidence demonstrates otherwise.
There is no guarantee that if you move to the left that it will increase or even alter the path of a driver.
I ride a meter away from the curb. I am under no illusion that it will increase my visibility to drivers nor will it change their behaviour.
electric
It's not a universal rule.
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 21:32I think, in general, there is a limit to how visible you can be. Moving to the left of the lane doesn't make one 120% more visible and safer than, say, being 1 meter from the curb.
Alternatively,
Moving 20cm from the curb doesn't make you 120% less vunerable and visible than being 1-metre from the curb. I can cook up a hundred situations where this rule is true, maybe you can think of hundred and one situations... does that make one method significantly better, no - because every situation is a bit different. Personally, I prefer not to ride in the gutters and if i can't do that on a specific road I never return to it . Some of my closer calls have been while I naively played gutter-bunny on carterials.
So, above, I advised the rider to position himself 1-metre or about an arms length from the curb, my reason was that to drivers it is unclear that cyclist is really traveling in their lane because he/she is not staking a definite claim to some real-estate space in that lane(not saying he has to take the lane, just signal he is in it). Hence they were playing "gutter-bunny" with the gutters and broken glass.
You have to been seen to be safe.
edit
One doesn't always have to be at least a meter, sometimes closer is fine also - but i wouldn't go closer than herb's advice about 1- foot distance unless there was some dangerous obstacle or huge pothole you were trying to avoid temporarily. I also don't think moving more than a meter away is a good idea either.
herb
fast arterials
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 21:00Perhaps I need to clarify again: I am, and CAN-BIKE is, making a difference between fast aterial or rural roads and slower urban roads. Your reasoning certainly holds much more weight in the urban center where most traffic is going about 40 km/h. It's easy to take the lane at slower speeds where drivers have more reaction time. CAN-BIKE has always held that on fast arterial roads that you're better off contending with sewer grates and potholes then biking right in the path of speeding traffic. I always figured that this was mighty undogmatic of CAN-BIKE in their recognition that what works in one situation doesn't always work in every other. (Bike activists have told me they find some CAN-BIKE concepts to be too dogmatic but that's neither here nor there).
The whole point of staying a foot from the lane edge on fast arterials is that cars don't need to alter their path much in order to avoid a cyclist. That's actually a good thing given the low reaction time.
You're going to need to rethink this one, Cpt_Sunshine.
Cpt_Sunshine
So do you ride over Sewer Grates?
Fri, 08/14/2009 - 10:19Firstly, I'm talking about riding about an arms length or a meter away from the curb, that is not "taking the lane". Given that in minimum width of a lane is about 10 -12', I'm only 1/4 of the way in the lane. How is that taking the lane?
Secondly, do you ride skinny tires? The advice that your better off contending "with sewer grates than speeding traffic" only makes sense if you think that riding over a sewer doesn't result is a guaranteed crash. In my life I've known 8 or 9 people that have been dispatched hitting sewer grates. I don't have to rethink anything, I've seen enough people with road rash on their face and mangled $1000 front wheels to know riding over sewer grates is a bad idea.
So thats what I was saying. You don't want to ride over sewer grates, you want to ride in a straight line, therefore the closest to the curb you can ride in a straight line is 2.5 feet to a meter. And if you don't agree to that, we will have to agree to disagree, because I've seen too much damage caused riding over sewer grates to consistently want to ride over them.
simplicius2wheels
That doesn't jive with the reality in my neighbourhood
Fri, 08/14/2009 - 10:30Is that a standard that the city publishes or is that just a guess on your part, Capt'n?
In the areas where I cycle, the lanes may be that wide in places but as the paint markings create left turn lanes, the required space is taken away from the normal width of the other lanes. I may take a tape measure on my next trip and get some examples...
Cpt_Sunshine
So do you ride over Sewer Grates?
Fri, 08/14/2009 - 10:19Firstly, I'm talking about riding about an arms length or a meter away from the curb, that is not "taking the lane". Given that in minimum width of a lane is about 10 -12', I'm only 1/4 of the way in the lane. How is that taking the lane?
Secondly, do you ride skinny tires? The advice that your better off contending "with sewer grates than speeding traffic" only makes sense if you think that riding over a sewer doesn't result is a guaranteed crash. In my life I've known 8 or 9 people that have been dispatched hitting sewer grates. I don't have to rethink anything, I've seen enough people with road rash on their face and mangled $1000 front wheels to know riding over sewer grates is a bad idea.
So thats what I was saying. You don't want to ride over sewer grates, you want to ride in a straight line, therefore the closest to the curb you can ride in a straight line is 2.5 feet to a meter. And if you don't agree to that, we will have to agree to disagree, because I've seen too much damage caused riding over sewer grates to consistently want to ride over them.
Tanya Q (not verified)
One foot? (should it not be one metre?)
Fri, 08/14/2009 - 11:17Where does this number one foot come from? Its far too close if that's the edge of the road. If you are a foot inside the lane but then there is some shoulder room that is different. Roads where traffic can move fast are usually designed with wider lanes, straight visibility etc. I have ridden far out on high speed roads. Traffic changes lanes far back from you. I can see them coming in my mirror and adjust accordingly.
simplicius2wheels
That's the reality in the burbs....
Fri, 08/14/2009 - 12:28...when traffic whizzes by at 60-80km/hr. At times you have to swallow your pride and desire to avoid the cracked pavement and even sewer grates. Narrow tires would be a bad choice for my area. I am not aware of any grates on my routes that would trap a hybrid-width tire, but some of the potholes are tire killers. Keep them pumped up at high pressure and avoid blow-outs.
toddtyrtle
Off-road alternatives
Wed, 08/12/2009 - 21:08Though they're not for everyone, and definitely, given how far apart they are spaced, not a great alternative for all, there are a couple of off-road crossings. When I worked up near Steeles, on days when I was not up for running the gauntlet (yes, lane control helps, but it is still a bit jangling for me) I would take the Betty Sutherland trail up near the north part of the East Don parkland, just south of Sheppard and Leslie. The other one that I know of (but have never tried) is way at the other end of town just west of the Weston Road 401 crossing.
There are a few other streets that you can also use that don't have interchanges. Don Mills has no 401 interchanges (but can be pretty busy) and I'm sure there are others that I don't know of.
simplicius2wheels
A mirror helps to judge when to get ready...
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 10:00...to switch from the exit lane into the next over. You still have to do your shoulder check before you move, but at least you can keep looking down the road as you proceed and wait for a chance to move over. I do this regularly where north-bound Brimley crosses the 401 and it can be frustrating. If traffic is heavy, I may have to stop at the curb and wait for the current wave of cars/trucks to pass. Good video, by the way.
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=43.779453,-79.264222&spn=0.0...
Also, cycling with a mirror need practice and some folks can never get used to it - but that's a separate topic.
Ed (not verified)
Herb writes: "I'm going to
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 14:16Herb writes:
"I'm going to expand on my other comment. There are times to "take the lane" and there are times not to take the lane. Keele, for most of its length falls into the latter category. Traffic is too fast and is unable to respond quickly enough to a cyclist that is trying to stake a claim to the whole lane. Any cyclist who is doing that would need to keep going at 50+ km/h, otherwise you'd risk a distracted motorist coming up quickly behind you, failing to see you until it is too late.
If you took a CAN-BIKE course from me I'd be telling you to stay near the edge of the lane. Do not try to take the lane on fast arterial roads!"
A long time ago, I rode my a bike up to York University via Keele (and the Old Weston Road overpass) a few times, maybe like 10 or 15 times.
From this experience, my advice is to take enough of the lane so that trucks must move over for you, but not so much of the lane that cars can't fairly safely squeeze past you. I generally find that trucks are courteous, and will take the time to pass you at a safe distance, if it's quite clear that there isn't enough room in the lane to try to squeeze by. On the other hand, trucks do try to squeeze by a gutter-hugging cyclist.
A memory from Keele St. right at the 401 overpass has never left me: I was northbound right in the gutter and an 18-wheeler was slowly squeezing by me. I was skimming the curb already, I had no place to go, I couldn't stop safely, and these huge tires were spinning, crushingly, just to the left of me, one slowly after another. That was over thirty years ago, and I remember it clearly. I've never tried gutter-bunnying since then, and despite all the tens of thousands of km of riding, I haven't had anywhere near as scary an experience.
My opinion of trucks respecting someone who takes at least a quarter of the lane has proven out on Kipling, The Queensway, North Queen, Horner, and other major truck routes. Fortunately trucks are mostly not as fast as cars, and the truck driver has good visibility. Now, cars and SUVs worry me more than trucks.
Kevin Love
When to take the lane
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 14:45Herb wrote:
"There are times to "take the lane" and there are times not to take the lane. Keele, for most of its length falls into the latter category."
Kevin's comment:
I agree with Herb's first sentence, but not the second one.
It is OK to allow motor vehicles to travel side-by-side in the same lane with my bike ONLY if the lane is wide enough to allow this. How wide is this?
A bicycle and rider occupies a width of about 1 Metre. Your handlebars may vary. To avoid potholes, debris and other road hazards, it is necessary to allow another 1/2 M “swerve distance” on either side. This is why the recommended width for bike lanes is 2 M.
In Ontario the maximum legal width of motor vehicles is 2.6 M. Motor vehicles also require 1/2 M “swerve” room on either side for safety.
Add it all up and the minimum lane width for a bicycle and a motor vehicle to travel safely side by side within a lane is 5.6 M. Keele is not that wide, so it is unsafe for a cyclist to allow motor vehicles to pass within the same lane. I've biked Keele many times and ALWAYS exercised proper lane control.
I would like to stress that on high-speed arterials the centre of the right lane is the safest place for a cyclist to be. Why? Because this is where motor vehicle drivers look the most. Even when looking off to one side, the centre is in the peripheral vision. If a cyclist is over on the right, the cyclist is less likely to be seen - and we've already established that Keele is too narrow to safely share a lane.
I strongly encourage all cyclists to exercise proper lane control. The more cyclists that do so, the more that motor vehicle drivers become used to seeing cyclists on the road and this sets a good example for other cyclists. When beginner cyclists are used to seeing other cyclists in the primary lane position, this helps give them the confidence to do the same.
This has the effect of building a road culture where all road users expect cyclists to be in the centre of the right lane. Then that's a safe road that is fast and convenient for cyclists to use.
Darren_S
Measurements.
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 20:32What stops a car from passing you with a couple of inches to spare when you have taken the lane?
You list the maximum width of a motor vehicle at 2.6 metres. The vast majority of cars on the road are narrower than 2 metres.
A cyclist at a metre. Wow, I am big yet fit in under a 50cm in width, actually 44cm to be precise. Not even my trailer is a metre wide and it is for two people.
chephy (not verified)
"What stops a car from
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 21:15"What stops a car from passing you with a couple of inches to spare when you have taken the lane?"
Nothing. But at least you have a lot of escape room to your right.
Darren_S
Landing area
Fri, 08/14/2009 - 05:06Yes agreed. The room to your right is your landing area.
PedalPowerPat
At a bare minimum, coloured
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 21:23It'd be cool as well if the highway authority would also hand out free wills. In the high possibility you do not return from your journey you could give your mangled bike wreckage and whatever they can scrape off the bottom of the cement truck to your family/friends.
Random cyclist (not verified)
too bad
Thu, 08/13/2009 - 22:29Too bad most comments are stuck on cyclist's behaviours rather than considering the major lack of infrastructure for cyclists to cross these hiways. The person who made the video has 30 plus years of riding in major urban centres and is a safe, effective rider.
The video has been made to illustrate a point - which was obviously missed by needing to make comments attempting do demonstrate you know more than someone.
Macho cyclists attitudes are tiresome and if we're going to get anywhere to make changes for universally safe cycling infrastructure, pointing out other people's cycling flaws is wasted energy.
Darren_S
Excellent point...
Fri, 08/14/2009 - 05:03It would not be too hard to improve the situation on these crossing points, even if at a bare minimum there were redesigned somewhat.
vic
Two things....
Fri, 08/14/2009 - 09:53There are two things we need to consider here:
1) Yes, absolutely, we need better cyclist crossings of most major highways. We need to accommodate all types of riders and all skill levels.
2) The current infrastructure sucks. However, some people have brought up good points on how to deal with what we have now. It's worth listening. If we can save some lives in the meantime, all the better.
Same situation with bike lanes. It's bad to dismiss all cycling education and just say, "rah rah rah we need more bike lanes in the downtown core!", when improved skills and behaviours can start saving lives right away.
avidrider (not verified)
Hey Random,
Fri, 08/14/2009 - 16:19Hey Random, and everyone else watching from home...
It's all about behavior. you'd call me insane if I suggested that riding over the yellow line in the path of oncoming traffic is a good way to keep yourself visible. but that's exactly my point : the infrastructure dosn't matter, the yellow line is only a suggestion. yet people observe and respect it adroitly. the challenge with painting coloured pavement for bikes is all about how people interpret and understand the colored pavement. Otherwise, it's just meaningless road art, like sharrows, or spacing chevrons on 400 series highways.
it's behavior that matters. If everyone thought like "wow, I'm approaching a merge/diverge, i'd better pay more attention as i move in two directions" we'd be better off. If everyone approached an intersection thinking "wow,I'm approaching a place where the most number of collisions occur, I'd better slow down", we' wouldn't need those inane suggestions for "Idaho Stops". If we taught everyone "drive carefully, or you WILL hurt someone", things would get a lot easier. but no, we have simplified, lifelong licensing, a focus on infrastructure rather than education, and insurance. oh yes, insurance, the wonderful industry that takes responsibility out of driving and makes all collisions and injuries just a mass of paperwork and easy wireless transactions. Funny how the car drivers get to be insured, but cyclists aren't. Think about that as a means of education. Funny how car drivers get discounts on their insurance for taking driver training, but cyclists? Nah, bike lessons are for pussies and geeks.
Behavior, behavior, behavior. It's all about behavior. Speeding is behavior. No manner of infrastructure can prevent speeding. Drivers who want to speed will speed. Same with careless driving. Careless drivers don't care. No infrastructure can help a driver who is not paying attention or caring for others. And dangerous driving - dangerous drivers are people who have, on rare occation, been caught after maiming or severely damaging persons or property.
The infrastructure already exists - who is using it? I challenge any of you to ride the Don Trail from downtown to Steeles, and report back. You can safely cross the 401, and DVP in several places. I promise.
herb
infrastructure is everything
Sat, 08/15/2009 - 18:03I could just as easily make the extreme opposite argument (if I wanted to come off looking equally pompous): infrastructure is everything. What happens if we stick a brick wall in the way? Or a giant hole? How about a giant highway? I bet that infrastructure will change behaviour.
Your ridiculous argument invites the extreme case of encouraging cyclists to ride on the 401 or Gardiner (if it were legal). Do you really think that you on your own would be able to safely navigate a 400 series highway with no shoulders? Perhaps members of the testosterone club could survive for a time, but even your fitness and behaviour will do little to ensure your safety.
Planners and traffic engineers base their careers on knowing that infrastructure affects behaviour. If traffic engineers can straighten roads to "smooth" traffic and enable higher speeds, then they could equally do the opposite of making it harder to go fast with such things as speed bumps, concrete planters, or "shared streets". These are all ways to recognize that the built environment affects traffic behaviour.
PedalPowerPat
I generally don't bike North
Sat, 08/15/2009 - 08:51The core is a playground for bikes its true, but some of those hills north of bloor are just to fun to avoid.
rick (not verified)
the why
Sat, 08/15/2009 - 10:58The point of this video is to remind us that one of the widest and busiest highways in the world slices our city in two. For those of us not willing, or not able to cross this barrier by car, the challenges are enormous. How can a city as vital, and ecologically conscious as Toronto let this happen?
It's true there are other ways to cross, such as using the Humber River trails. This reminds me of the arguments against putting a bike lane on Jarvis Street - some councillors didn't understand why cyclists couldn't use the Don River trails instead. (And why couldn't cars use the Don Valley Parkway instead of Jarvis?)
I commute regularly from downtown to a school north of the 401, and often have to be there early in the morning. The ride takes me just under an hour, on average, if I bike at a steady, hard pace. To use the Humber trail would add 30 to 60 minutes to my commute - meaning waking up earlier, expending much more energy, and mentally preparing for a far longer distance.
Realistically, my only other option is to take Dufferin, which goes under the 401. It too has on- and off-ramps, plus the large shopping mall. I'm sure a similar video could be made for this route (but the lighting wouldn't be as nice).
One option I believe would be close to perfect. There is a lightly used rail line that cuts north between Keele and Dufferin, passes through Downsview Park, and comes up beside York University. It is marked on Toronto's Bike Plan as a future bike route between Eglinton and Steeles. It would make the commute a dream, as nice as going along the Eglinton Beltline path shown in the video. I dare to dream.
- rick
Kevin Love
Yesterday's trip
Sat, 08/15/2009 - 11:22Yesterday I had to travel to Yorkdale mall. So I went up and down Dufferin Street from Bloor to the 401 (although I didn't cross the 401). I took the right lane all the way, exercising proper lane control, and there was no problem. All the cars passed me safely in the passing lane. That's what the passing lane is there for.
Just another totally uneventful errand. I do it all the time. But I don't normally write about it.
Tom Flaherty
Forrest Obscured by Trees
Tue, 08/18/2009 - 14:27I thought that the video makes an obvious point - there is no cycling infrastructure to assist pedestrians and cyclists in crossing the 401.
The stupid things that drivers do are unpredictable, and adding speed with traffic volume and lane changes makes for some very risky cycling, not to mention the fact that drivers are probably not expecting to see a cyclist on this type of road.
What makes this point even more so, is that there is no agreement in this thread on how to cycle safely on arterial multi-lane roads.
There needs to be dedicated pedestrian and cycling infrastructure at numerous points along the 401in order to facilitate safe cycling across this divide; to argue otherwise is simple foolishness.
dash (not verified)
directly from the mto
Tue, 08/18/2009 - 15:00directly from the mto site:
Taking a lane
In urban areas where a curb lane is too narrow to share safely with a motorist, it is legal to take the whole lane by riding in the centre of it. On high-speed roads, it is not safe to take the whole lane. To move left in a lane, should check, signal, left and shoulder check again then move to the centre of the lane when it is safe to do so.
[Editors: the MTO page is here]
Kevin Love
Today's ride over the 401
Tue, 08/18/2009 - 17:03My Pashley needed some routine maintenance at Curbside. The bicycle part of my multi-modal trip was on Bathurst from Bloor Street to the Downsview TTC station at Shephard. With one exception, another totally uneventful, routine trip.
The one exception was not while crossing the 401. The 401 crossing was totally routine. Bathurst goes under the 401 and does not do anything weird while doing so. I hardly even noticed the 401.
The exception was on Bathurst, south of the 401. A driver in a white pickup truck, license plate #589 9WB, passed far too close to me, shouted something incomprehensible out the window, and weaved off up Bathurst. I, of course, immediately pulled out my cell telephone, called 911 and made a complaint of an impaired and/or careless driver. I promised that I would be willing to testify in court.
As I have previously mentioned here, whenever I encounter a car driver doing something dangerous and illegal, I always call 911 and lay a complaint. I encourage others to do the same.
Random cyclist (not verified)
Hey avidrider
Tue, 08/18/2009 - 17:55I've ridden the Don Valley Trail several times to visit family in North York.
But sometimes I want to go to York, some times I want to go to Kleinburg by bike. Here's a novel idea, maybe some day I'd like to bring my kids or my aging parents.
If it's all about behaviour explain me this: why do 40% of people in Copenhagen cycle to work?
The macho cycling attitudes are tiresome. I'm a woman amongst many who want to have a safe way to cycle to work, do errands, get to were I need to go, and ride with children. Until the behaviour of drivers is 100% perfect, I'll be spending my time advocating for better cycling infrastructure. Spare me the rant.
Kevin Love
Roads are for everyone
Tue, 08/18/2009 - 18:43Random cyclist brings up an important point. The PUBLIC roads should include and accomodate everyone. I'm OK with exercising lane control on 4-lane suburban roads. Would I let my 10-year-old son or my 7-year-old daughter do the same? No way. Even my 12-year-old daughter is causing me nervousness.
Same for elderly and novice riders. The public roads should be for everyone, but right now they are not.
I will continue to urge everyone who is able to get the skills and confidence to take the lane, exercise proper lane control and take their lawful place on the road. But many people are not able to do so. The public roads should be for them too.
dash (not verified)
An excellent argument for
Mon, 08/24/2009 - 13:35An excellent argument for licensing (and mandatory education).
locutas_of_spragge
So...
Mon, 09/07/2009 - 00:39inadequate, and in fact dangerous, infrastructure gives us a reason to license cyclists?
Licenses for means of transportation that do not pose a threat to other people (unlike the two-tonne steel bombs we call cars) takes us uncomfortably close to a "papers, please!" society.
renton (not verified)
i love people that complain
Mon, 08/24/2009 - 00:05i love people that complain on the internet
isn't it just the most active form of citizenship?
Ryan (via the c... (not verified)
Sort of makes me happy to live in Niagara...
Fri, 08/28/2009 - 07:02WOW is all I can say.
I live in St Catharines, and we have crossings mostly over or under the QEW. For the most part they are slower moving traffic and much safer.
The one road I take most often (Lake Street) they are almost completed with a new overpass. It is **MUCH **wider and from what I gather is going to have bike lanes.
I think only the Martindale overpass down here is the the only dangerous overpass, and that's because it's down to a very narrow lane as they are re-doing that also. Which when completed will be more bike friendly I suppose.
As for on/off ramps, I don't recall ever having any issues here. We don't have too many like those anymore. Most of the on/off ramps lead to the service roads here. I pass a few depending on where I'm going, and any cars that are going on or off will simply wait till I pass it.
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