I am going to start off by expanding a bit on Herb’s intro to Vehicular Cycling and John Forester. These posts are not an attempt at an wholesale assassination on ‘Vehicular Cycling’. There are many good things about Vehicular Cycling that one would be wise to consider putting into practice. I agree with Herb that some parts of Vehicular Cycling should be considered as part of a balanced approach to riding on our streets. That said, there are some suggested practices and pieces of information in Vehicular Cycling that range from questionable to dishonest to dangerous. This is troubling because quite frequently these problem areas are in the forefront, being used to obstruct the progression of all things cycling, whether it is a bike lane or legislative relief. While Vehicular Cycling converts like to describe their entire approach as a proven theory, the problems being explored in these posts will suggest that Vehicular Cycling contains a mix of various theories and hypotheses.
Vehicular Cycling is explained as the, “...practice of driving bicycles on roads in a manner that is visible, predictable, and in accordance with the principles for driving a vehicle in traffic...” What is missed in most of these definitions is the political component of Vehicular Cycling. Read any Vehicular Cycling literature and it clearly asks its converts to advocate its tenets where ever and whenever they can. Vehicular Cycling contains a political philosophy that is strongly influenced by staunch conservative values and encourages followers to promote it with religious fervor. This is not a criticism: any sort of advocacy group has different political influences and different ways of delivering their message. It is, however, important to understand how these influences present themselves, and how they shape suggested practices. In the case of Vehicular Cycling, it holds to true conservative values of preserving the way things are and resisting radical change, regardless of how beneficial change may be.
To begin this discussion it is important to start with a key definition. Every set of practices or laws relating to how to operate a vehicle on a road have a common goal; that is, to make the use of the roads “safe”. It is important to understand how this word is used to understand the goals of any proposed “safe” practice, and how it is interpreted.
How is “safe” defined? Dictionaries use an “either or” definition, you are “safe” if you are free of harm otherwise you are not “safe”. In general usage though the definition is more comparative. We ask, “Is it safe?” Meaning is there less risk than an act one is familiar with. For instance, “Is roller blading safer than taking a car?” No one assumes that any act is completely safe.
"Risk" is an easier word to define as it deals with the probability of harm occurring and is subject to less opinion. Everything else being equal, you or I have the same risk of being struck by lighting. Yet our views could be at odds when asked if riding in a lighting storm is “safe”. You may view it is “safe” practice because it has an acceptable risk factor, I not.
The word “safe” when discussing cycling takes on a lot more opinion and emotion in its definition. “Safe” in cycling discussions contains two major parts, a quantitative and qualitative assessment. Risk, usually measured through statistics, is the quantitative assessment. I would argue that the qualitative assessment is opinion gained through one’s experience, perception or interpretation. The qualitative part is very powerful to cyclists or potential cyclists when they act. In some cases so strong that they will ignore the quantitative assessment altogether. A perfect example of this is riding a bicycle on a sidewalk. There is a wealth of statistics that clearly states that this practice is far more risky than riding on the road. Typically the practice of riding on the sidewalk is driven by the discomfort of sharing the road with much larger vehicles or just the road itself. This decision can also be influenced in a large part by factors that are not easily identified by statistics. A good example here would be the aggression cyclists face from drivers while riding on the road, whether the cyclist is in compliance or not with the rules of the road. Rarely do cyclists get hit by these aggressive drivers but it can make riding very unpleasant. Some time ago I heard cycling advocate Ben Smith-Lea describe the desire and importance by cyclists to have a pleasant ride described as the “quality of life on the road”. A quick read of any cycling advocacy website or face-to-face discussion amongst cyclists shows how important quality of life really is.
It is extremely important to understand that cyclists’ concerns are not unique nor do cyclists suffer from any sort of mass mental health issue as suggested by Vehicular Cycling. Drivers have the very same issues and they too will favour the qualitative assessment, and with good reason. Unlike cycling, there is more quantitative evidence supporting their assessments. They too have discomforts like sharing the road with large vehicles, non adherence to rules of the road, aggression, and so on, which bears out in statistics. In a stunning statistic referred to in an open letter by Ian Law published in the Toronto Star, nearly one in 17 cars in Ontario was involved in a collision in 2006. Other statistics point to aggression being the cause of up to 80% of collisions. This begs the question of how “safe” it is to advise cyclists that they are “safest when they behave like vehicles”? Especially when motor vehicle drivers and the conventions established for them to operate on the road that Vehicular Cycling practices have been modeled on are in such turmoil themselves.
Vehicular Cycling attempts to address the qualitative issues with questionable results and sometimes even uses unsupported “facts” to achieve this. Vehicular Cycling even attempts to dismiss the qualitative concerns by cyclists altogether by labeling them as a disease. This “disease” will be dealt with more directly in the second part of my post. There are three articles I have referenced in the following three paragraphs I would like to draw your attention to. One deals with the contrasts between a cyclist interested in not only being safer but in the quality of life and a Vehicular Cycling practitioner. The second makes a quantitative argument as to why cycling is “safe”, arguing that cycling is safer than most any other transportation choice. Finally the third takes a direct look at the qualitative assessment.
“Bike Lanes: A Motorist Invention” in The Urban Country by James D. Schwartz highlights the contrast between issues of quality of life versus the tenets of Vehicular Cycling. There may be a slight miss in the article when the Vehicular Cyclist is not challenged when he states that cyclists should not be given any special consideration on the roads. This conflicts with a Vehicular Cycling practice of “filtering”, a practice to give a cyclist an advantage in slow moving traffic. “Filtering” is in a legal gray area in several jurisdictions including Ontario. In others it is widely practiced even if illegal.
Ken Kifer makes an excellent quantitative argument that cycling is safe, even boasting that, “...bicycling is nearly six times as safe as living!” He also argues that the fatality/ injury rates could even be further reduced if more cyclists practiced Vehicular Cycling. Unfortunately he supports this reduction based on some of the more questionable attributions’, like the source of a cyclist's fear, of Vehicular Cycling.
Sociologist Dave Horton takes a hard look at the factors involved in qualitative assessments that are made by cyclists. This is a very well researched article and makes some excellent points. He does seem though to somewhat share a “conspiracy theory” with Vehicular Cycling of the invention of cycling as dangerous: “...The road safety industry, helmet promotion campaigns and anyone responsible for marketing off-road cycling facilities all have a vested interest in constructing cycling - particularly cycling on the road - as a dangerous practice...”
There is a myth in the cycling community that Vehicular Cycling tells cyclists to behave and drive like cars. This follows with protests that a bicycle can never be like a motorized vehicle. In its most base form Vehicular Cycling is proposing that we have a common approach to the road in order to best communicate with other road users. Any reasonable proposed practice to use on our roads would pretty much have to rely on similar mechanics.
The problem is that Vehicular Cycling founding father, John Forester, surrendered to the automobile before even considering any other approaches to use to communicate with other road users. He freely admits admits as much. Google Videos has a lecture by Mr. Forester where he provides his interpretation of history and how the car took the dominant role.
He chose to integrate his approach into the system of rules of the road that were established for the automobile; a system that was flawed even before he promoted Vehicular Cycling. Other forms of transportation: pedestrians, planes, and ships, for instance, have much lower incidents of collisions than automobiles. You had a much greater chance of dying in a car on 9/11 than you would have had had you been flying or been on a ship. These other modes of transportation use a much higher level of active communication that what is found in the rules of the road. Approaches like “Complete Streets” and “Naked Streets”, which Herb will deal with in greater detail, have proven how flawed the current rules of the road and street designs are.
There, too, is the problem that to this day the bicycle is not universally accepted, even in some North Americas jurisdictions, as a vehicle. Even if it is considered a vehicle, several jurisdictions treat the bicycle in its driver education manuals and highway laws as a nuisance. It could be argued quite easily, however, that this is not a flaw of Vehicular Cycling but a flaw created by lawmakers. A more relevant problem with Vehicular Cycling is that it is rigid and adverse to change, something that, again, we will later on touch on in greater detail. Things change, societies change, needs change, understandings change and any proposed method must be able to adapt. If it fails to adapt it becomes irrelevant and out of touch.
In my second part to follow I will take to task both some minor and major issues with Vehicular Cycling. I will be encouraging you to take another look at some so-called facts promoted by Vehicular Cycling enthusiasts. There will also be some simple social and driving (yes, with a car) experiments you can carry out on your own that may offer you a basis to alternative explanations to those of Vehicular Cycling dogma. I will also make a case as to why the “cyclist inferiority complex” is more junk psychology than it is fact.
Comments
Tom Flaherty
All Right
Thu, 05/06/2010 - 10:10Right hand Filter - safe, OK. So what you are suggesting is what the majority of cyclists (myself included) are practicing on the road everyday. Don't assume I'm wrong just because you see yourself as being overtly right.
locutas_of_spragge
more on political assumptions
Thu, 05/06/2010 - 21:15trikebum wrote:
I find a lot of things about this statement objectionable, starting with the implied absolution of the driver in this case. To start with the issues particular to this one case: no outlet I know of has yet published any police reports or legal arguments in this case. So let us not assume the accused "drifted" into the bike lane, or that he didn't see the cyclists, or that a different lane position might have saved them. To the extent we have published evidence about the crash, that evidence appears to suggest all the cyclists got hit from behind at high speed.
This matters because it illustrates a real problem with "vehicular cycling"; the notion that cyclists have a duty to make ourselves visible to motorists. This leads to excuses for negligent drivers that nobody would ever make in other circumstances. Nobody would suggest in mitigation of the boxing day shooting in Toronto that the shooter "didn't see" Jane Creba, or suggest that everyone who walks around in downtown Toronto has an obligation to wear orange vests with "innocent bystander" stenciled on them. We don't hold people responsible for "staying safe" from gun violence; we hold other people responsible for not shooting them. The same rule ought to hold for cars: when I, for my own convenience, gain, or pleasure take two tonnes of steel capable of moving at over fifty meters a second, carrying the equivalent of over 30 kg of TNT into public space, I have an obligation to take proper care so as not to harm anyone. That means looking before I merge into any lane, before I make any turn. It means I, not the cyclists or the traffic engineers, have a responsibility to know, and follow, the protocols for driving on a street with bike lanes.
This comes back to the issue of impunity for drivers. A large part of impunity stems from the assumption of good faith, which, in turn, the argument that cyclists have a duty to make sure motorists see us feeds into.
JFJ (not verified)
Sheep on highway in Ottawa ...
Thu, 05/06/2010 - 23:54Those cyclists on the road in Ottawa could have been a herd of sheep. they would still have been creamed.
Any shepherds for sheep lanes out there?
locutas_of_spragge
I consider that...
Fri, 05/07/2010 - 01:51way out of line.
Aside from involving no facts whatever, unless you count establishing your willingness to engage in insensitive posturing on message boards (doing so anonymously takes all the point out of it), I still see no point in what you have written. Do you mean to suggest that "real men" and "real women" would have taken the lane? Do you really think that would have protected them? Every year, bad driving kills over forty thousand people in North America, very few of them in bike lanes. Drivers hit other cars bang in the centre of driving lanes all of the time. A driver inattentive enough to "drift" into another lane and then hit the people in it from behind would almost certainly have hit cyclists right in front of him. I can only call the argument that cyclists who got injured in an act of violence by a driver somehow caused their own fate by using the bike lane both fatuous and offensive.
trikebum (not verified)
Bike lanes and sidepaths shown to be unsafe
Thu, 05/06/2010 - 21:26Germany has repealed it's mandatory bikelane/sidepath law after 80 yrs. Studies by the government report they are less safe than riding on the road.
> Nonetheless, the results of the study were clear: the use of a sidepath incurs a risk up to five times as high at intersections as riding on the roadway.
> This study showed that sidepaths lead to a change in the type of crashes away from intersections. No actual reduction in the numbers of crashes could be shown. It was also established that bicycle crashes on the roadway often result from bicyclists' being too close to its edge. Many of the crashes were collisions with suddenly-opened car doors. These crashes could be avoided simply with the spacing which the police ask bicyclists to maintain.
This page is translated from German to English by John S Allen: http://tinyurl.com/yaqklfz
locutas_of_spragge
no such thing...
Thu, 05/06/2010 - 23:35as an unsafe road, only unsafe drivers.
And the web page you quote to bolster your argument, that sidepaths and bike lanes cause accidents, actually says nothing about bike lanes; it only addresses the issue of sidepaths. Since in many cases, so-called sidepaths simply legalize sidewalk riding, this does not surprise me. If you can point to a study which links proper bicycle lanes. with the appropriate 1.5 meter width and turn facilities where appropriate, with car on bicycle crashes, then you would have an argument. But you can't quote a study on sidepaths to discredit bicycle lanes in Toronto.
trikebum (not verified)
Same thing...
Fri, 05/07/2010 - 09:08> And the web page you quote to bolster your argument, that sidepaths and bike lanes cause accidents, actually says nothing about bike lanes; it only addresses the issue of sidepaths. Since in many cases, so-called sidepaths simply legalize sidewalk riding, this does not surprise me.
Bikelanes, sidepaths, cycle tracks same thing...same dangers. This site was quoting the German government concerning two studies they did.
herb
bull sh*t conclusions
Fri, 05/07/2010 - 15:12@trikebum - your conclusions are erroneous, hardly scientific. They are not all the 'same thing', obviously. And there have been no studies, that I can find (including the Aultman-Hall studies) that show they are "exactly" the same in terms of danger.
The Aultman-Hall study only looked at roads, off-road paths and sidewalks in terms of exposure to incidents. She didn't look at painted bike lanes, or even bike lanes separated by bollards.
A fairly comprehensive literature review, completed last year, concludes that on-road bike routes, on-road marked bike lanes and bike-only off-road paths were associated with the lowest risk.
I had also casually found an old study that seems to confirm that cycling on sidewalks is risky, but that bike lanes pose less risk than a major or minor road without bike facilities.
trikebum (not verified)
Can we debate politely?
Sat, 05/08/2010 - 09:28Some posters get personal and start slinging uncomplimentary blanket descriptives such as stupid, simplistic, ridiculous, bullshit etc.instead of challenging individual statements on their own merit. I don't think this is conducive to intelligent debate, but perhaps that is not the goal?
> @trikebum - your conclusions are erroneous, hardly scientific. They are not all the 'same thing', obviously.
What I said was same thing same dangers. Cyclists riding in any of these facilities are subject to right hooks at intersections and are not visible to motorists entering the road from driveways or side streets. Motorists look out into the traffic lane.before proceeding.They are not looking for and do not see cyclist on sidewalks and BLs. They see me easily because I am where they expect traffic to be: in the traffic lane.
herb
less here-say, more evidence
Sat, 05/08/2010 - 09:42If I call your conclusion bullsh*t, that's not a personal attack, that's me making a judgement call on your conclusion. It doesn't seem to have done much good, because you continue to assume that all bicycle facilities have the same "dangers", when it is clear from the literature I quoted that they are not the same at all: they are not all just as dangerous.
You are making these sensationalist conclusions, trying to scare cyclists out of bike lanes, and someone needs to call you on your here-say and conclusions without evidence.
locutas_of_spragge
the actual studies quoted...
Fri, 05/07/2010 - 15:34dealt with sidepaths, not bicycle lanes.
But the article you quote has a comment which reveals the whole bias: it suggests bike lanes pose a threat because motorists drive through them, or park in them, or otherwise impinge on them. In other words, the problem arises from misbehaviour by motorists. This reflects a much larger pattern within accomodationist cycling circles (people with this political outlook like to call themselves vehicular cyclists). They propose training (for cyclists, not motorists), they oppose infrastructure (because motorists don't always treat it properly).
This goes beyond issues of cycling. Cyclists, transit riders, pedestrians, and, yes, motorists ought to resist a system in which anyone seeking access to public space has to deal with a class of people with social permission to behave ignorantly and recklessly. If motorists park in bike lanes, let's name the problem: those motorists who do it, and the society that gives them permission. If motorists "don't see" cyclists, name the problem: motorists who don't pay attention, and the enablers who excuse inattentive driving.
That raises the question: how do we educate motorists? I would argue in favour of bike lanes on that basis if no other: bicycle lanes present a clear statement that cars do not have exclusive rights to the road. They present a clear and visual statement that society, for a huge number of very good reasons, values cycling, and thus encourage it.
Darren_S
Beautiful point John
Fri, 05/07/2010 - 08:04Cars hit cars every day.
anonymous (not verified)
Speaking for myself, as a
Fri, 05/07/2010 - 10:38> Speaking for myself, as a sailor, a cyclist, a licensed pilot and, yes, a motorist, I want to end the culture of impunity surrounding the automobile. I want to see dangerous driving defined correctly, as a violent act. I want people who kill other people by crashing cars into them at 90 km/h over the posted speed limit to get the same sentence as people who kill other people by firing Uzis at them. I want motorists held absolutely responsible for operating their vehicles safely. I want the words "I didn't see..." or "I didn't know..." to count as aggravating, not mitigating factors. I don't want this so much because I think that will substantially reduce the use of private automobiles, although I do think it the prospect of actual Canadian murder sentences for killing people with cars would stop the majority of street racers cold. I want motorists held to account without fear or favour because the notion of a protected class of people using a technology as dangerous as the private car offends my values and my sense that justice means equality before the law.
John,
Killing or injuring someone through negligence is already a criminal act and attracts some very serious penalties. But not as serious as for killing or injuring someone intentionally. And there is a good reason for this - there is a big difference between people who set out to intentionally hurt other people and people who hurt other people by being careless. Morally, one is far worse than the other.
Darren_S
Negligence
Fri, 05/07/2010 - 13:31Negligence and carelessness are both the same thing. Dangerous driving (a criminal offence) and careless driving (HTA) are both negligent acts. The difference between the two is that the former usually involves putting more people at risk and can involve an element of intent. ie Speeding through a crowded street to show off to your friends (the intent) while not considering the risk to the public (negligence). Careless driving is available as a reduced charge to dangerous driving.
Homicides require intent. There are no elements of negligence in homicide.
If you have neither negligence nor intent you have an accident or act of nature.
anonymous (not verified)
Negligence and carelessness
Fri, 05/07/2010 - 15:34> Negligence and carelessness are both the same thing.
Sorry to be such a nitpicker, but they are not the same thing.
Negligence is carelessness that results in injury to people or property.
For example, you could drive your SUV at 140kmh down Harbord street while wearing a blindfold and carrying on two different conversations on two different cell phones. Careless? Yes. Negligence? Not until you run someone or something over.
locutas_of_spragge
nonsense...
Fri, 05/07/2010 - 15:47if you fire an Uzi on Yonge Street, you get arrested. If the bullets you fire hit someone and kill them, you get charged with murder. We infer from your action in pulling the trigger that you intended to kill, and intent follows the bullet. If you drive a two-tonne steel battering ram down Harbord Street at massively excessive speed with inadequate control, we can assume you intended to kill someone, and intent follows (or should follow) the bumper.
Negligence means not living up to a standard of care. Not clearing your weapon at the firing range and letting it discharge and hit someone counts as negligence. Pulling out a Glock and firing multiple rounds in a shopping mall does not fall into that category. Neither does driving at a rate of speed (almost triple the speed limit) in a dense urban environment. We only make a (meretricious) distinction because we have gotten used to the idea of motorists as a legally protected class.
Darren_S
Depends
Fri, 05/07/2010 - 18:23Pulling out a Glock and firing multiple rounds in a shopping mall does not fall into that category. Neither does driving at a rate of speed (almost triple the speed limit) in a dense urban environment.
Both examples are negligent. The question for the Glock was there intent. If you were shooting at balloons to get them down you are only criminally negligent if you hit someone and probably pretty stupid. A more realistic example happens all of the time in hunting. A hunter thinks he spots a deer while driving, reacts without looking, pulls over and takes out his shotgun to blast away. Only to realize he blows away grandma on a hike.
Take out Glock at the mall and start shooting at people to scare them then you are talking murder.
Darren_S
Careless
Fri, 05/07/2010 - 18:24There is no harm in the definition of negligence,
from the dictionary,
"failure to act with the prudence that a reasonable person would exercise under the same circumstances "
From the criminal code,
"Criminal negligence
219. (1) Every one is criminally negligent who
(a) in doing anything, or
(b) in omitting to do anything that it is his duty to do,
shows wanton or reckless disregard for the lives or safety of other persons."
To sustain a 'criminal negligence' charge you need to have caused harm. Yet you do not need harm in a Dangerous Driving charge, just negligence.
Dangerous Driving
Dangerous operation of motor vehicles, vessels and aircraft
(a) a motor vehicle in a manner that is dangerous to the public, having regard to all the circumstances, including the nature, condition and use of the place at which the motor vehicle is being operated and the amount of traffic that at the time is or might reasonably be expected to be at that place;...
...Punishment
(2) Every one who commits an offence under subsection (1)
(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years; or
(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.
Careless driving takes the same tack,
Careless driving
130. Every person is guilty of the offence of driving carelessly who drives a vehicle or street car on a highway without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway and on conviction is liable to a fine of not less than $400 and not more than $2,000 or to imprisonment for a term of not more than six months, or to both, and in addition his or her licence or permit may be suspended for a period of not more than two years. 2009, c. 5, s. 41.
The only place the word careless is used in the criminal code,
"Careless use of firearm, etc.
86. (1) Every person commits an offence who, without lawful excuse, uses, carries, handles, ships, transports or stores a firearm, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device or any ammunition or prohibited ammunition in a careless manner or without reasonable precautions for the safety of other persons."
Which again speaks to negligence.
Another dictionary uses carelessness part and parcel of the definition of negligence,
negligent - Careless, without appropriate or sufficient attention; Culpable due to negligence
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/negligent
Finally, yes I should have used the word "culpable" or "intentional" in front of the word "homicide".
anonymous (not verified)
on the subject of negligence
Sat, 05/08/2010 - 07:46I assure you that negligence is a technical term with a precise meaning, and that it includes harm.
For your criminal code example, I assure you that you will not find offences that involve criminal negligence that do not involve harm. If you continued to read the sections that followed after 219, you would see that the actual offences all involve harm: criminal negligence causing death, criminal negligence causing bodily harm, and manslaughter by criminal negligence.
That is why the language of "carelessness" and not "negligence" is used in the other sections that you quoted - they deal with inherently dangerous activities that constitute offences regardless of whether someone is injured. If harm was a requirement they would use the term negligence instead.
Darren_S
No assurance just negligent opinion
Sat, 05/08/2010 - 13:48Sorry 'anonymous' I am not assured by your opinion.
You are trying to take a codified view of our legal system. Our system is common law which is the exact opposite of what you are trying to push.
No clue what you mean by saying that negligence is a technical term. Maybe you have a reference for that? Negligence is based on a reasonable persons test, that is why you see the term "reasonable" so often, it is a common thread. While on its face it may seem awfully abstract there is enough case law to define 'negligence'.
The Supreme Court in R v. Hundall 2003 ties all of this information together quite well,
Per L'Heureux‑Dubé, Sopinka, Gonthier, Cory and Iacobucci JJ.: The mens rea for the offence of dangerous driving should be assessed objectively but in the context of all the events surrounding the incident. The objective test meets the requirements of s. 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and was properly applied here.
Negligent driving can be thought of as a continuum that progresses, or regresses, from momentary lack of attention giving rise to civil responsibility through careless driving under a provincial Highway Traffic Act to dangerous driving under the Criminal Code.
Section 233 (now s. 249) of the Criminal Code requires an objective standard. This standard is quite appropriate given the need to reduce highway carnage. A consideration of the personal factors essential to determining subjective intent is generally not necessary given the fixed standards of physical and mental well‑being coupled with the basic knowledge of the standard of care required of licensed drivers. A driver, whose conduct was objectively dangerous, should not be acquitted because he or she was not thinking of his or her manner of driving at the time of the accident. The nature of driving itself is often so routine and automatic that it is almost impossible to determine a particular state of mind of a driver at any given moment. The question to be asked, therefore, given that liability for dangerous driving is based on negligence, is whether, viewed objectively, the accused exercised the appropriate standard of care‑‑not whether the accused subjectively intended the consequences of his or her action. The accused can still raise a reasonable doubt that a reasonable person would have been aware of the risks of his or her conduct. The test must be applied flexibly in the context of the events surrounding the incident.
The trier of fact must be satisfied that the conduct amounted to a marked departure from the standard of care that a reasonable person would observe in the accused's situation. If the accused offers an explanation, such as a sudden and unexpected onset of illness, the trier of fact, in order to convict, must be satisfied that a reasonable person in similar circumstances ought to have been aware of the risk and of the danger involved in the conduct manifested by the accused. A charge to the jury need only follow this reasoning. It need not be long or complex. Neither the section nor the offence requires it.
anonymous (not verified)
Darren, Do you have any legal
Sat, 05/08/2010 - 16:14Darren,
Do you have any legal training, or are you just blindly poking around on CanLII, or worse, wikipedia?
I am not trying to assure you, I am trying to educate you. No amount of arguing on the Internet will change what negligence is. You can choose to remain ignorant if you'd like, that is your choice.
If I remember correctly, in Hundal is the out of control dump truck case. As I recall, it was raining, he was speeding, and he drove a dump truck into another car killing or seriously injuring the occupants. That is simply further proof of what I have been telling you - that damage is an essential element of negligence.
If you'd like to prove to me that damage is not an essential element of negligence, I invite you to find a case where someone was found guilty of a negligence offence or civilly liable in negligence without causing damage.
While you are reading case law, start with donoghue v. stevenson and work your way forward.
If you are so interested in this, I encourage you to enrol in law school and join the ranks of the profession. Once you've finished your first year torts class, come back here and let me know what you've learned.
anonymous (not verified)
homicide
Fri, 05/07/2010 - 15:39Sorry, I just can't stop.
> Homicides require intent. There are no elements of negligence in homicide.
You mean murder.
Homicide is causing the death of a human being, directly or indirectly by any means. Homicide is only an offence if it is murder, manslaughter, or infanticide.
Manslaughter may be committed by criminal neglgience.
anonymous (not verified)
No, you can't assume that you
Fri, 05/07/2010 - 15:55No, you can't assume that you intended to kill someone. We can assume that you are stupid, reckless, and that you shouldn't have a driver's license. If you hurt someone, you can go to jail.
But what you are suggesting is that someone who speeds excessively is intentionally trying to kill someone which is a fallacy. The truth is that someone who speeds excessively hasn't turned their mind to the possibility that what they are doing is dangerous. That's negligence, not murder.
locutas_of_spragge
An example of...
Fri, 05/07/2010 - 17:16special motor vehicle logic, that we only accept because we don't question it.
Consider two dangerous machines. On burns an explosive propellant behind a small projectile, which shoots down a barrel and can cause lethal penetrating wounds. The other burns an explosive propellant behind a piston, which turns a crank, which propels a large wheeled vehicle capable of causing lethal blunt force injuries.
If you operate the first type of machine in public, at random, we infer from the dangerous nature of the machine you used that you intended to kill someone. If you operate the second type of machine in public at such a speed, and under such conditions, that you cannot effectively control it, we should assume you intended the same thing.
Tom Flaherty
Dangerous Driving
Fri, 05/07/2010 - 18:12Driving is typically a safe activity when done within the limits of the law. The level of acceptable negligence of a driver offers convenient defense when they end up banging into pedestrians and cyclists; some even crash into houses and shopping malls - remember the elderly lady that got plowed through a brick wall when walking outside of a Toronto Mall last year?
I would never suggest that a car was used as a weapon unless there was reasonable intent, but I do think that we could make our streets safer if there were increased responsibilities for drivers.
If a driver made contact with another pedestrian, cyclist or vehicle they should face an automatic suspension and fine pending an investigation. As John has already pointed out, the aviation industry regulates pilots by this standard, so why not drivers?
A car hits a pedestrian in Toronto every six hours, and the most common defense is that the driver did not see the victim; including mothers pushing strollers across the street.
Would drivers be a lot better at avoiding collisions if they were also trying to avoid a suspension and heavy fine?
locutas_of_spragge
Extremes of motorist behaviour...
Fri, 05/07/2010 - 19:39let me put this clearly. I do regard speeding as a punishable offence. I regard it as a very serious offence if it results in a death. But I do not regard ordinary speeding, letting your speed get up to, say, 20km/h over the limit, as sufficiently reckless with life to trigger a charge of murder. But the situation posited, involving speeds of 140 km/h in the downtown, involves not ordinary speeding but an extreme of motorist behaviour. At that speed, a car would take 140 meters to brake after the driver spotted another car or pedestrian; one and a half times the length of some of the blocks on Harbord. Going that fast, a driver has to register that if another car comes out of the intersection, they will kill the occupants. That kind of intent parallels the intent of an armed robber who enters a bank with the intent to shoot anyone who resists.We only treat it differently because of the immunity we have (wrongly) decided to confer on drivers.
Tom: personally, I would like to see a simplified law: if you get caught driving drunk a second time, if you kill or injure anyone while driving drunk or dangerously or a certain amount over the speed limit, you never drive legally in Ontario again. Period. No exceptions allowed, no excuses accepted.
anonymous (not verified)
John, the law recognizes what
Sat, 05/08/2010 - 08:08John, the law recognizes what you are talking about during sentencing. Someone who was driving 20k over and kills someone and someone who was driving 100k over and kills someone might both be found guilty of criminal negligence causing death, but the first person will face a lesser sentence than the second person because the facts were less egregious. If that's the case, why does the label that you put on the activity matter - the state has recognized that the person has committed a criminal act and penalized them accordingly.
locutas_of_spragge
...boggle...
Sat, 05/08/2010 - 14:22Well, fundamentally, because the whole notion of justice rests on the truth, learning it, telling it, acting on it, and part of telling the truth involves naming things correctly. If I operate a car at egregiously excessive speed in the city, I have formed the intent to kill anyone who drives around the next corner, and if I form that intent, and I do in fact kill the person, that makes my offence murder, not negligence.
In addition, in Canada the "labels" you speak of have penalties attached to them: 10 years without parole in the case of second degree murder, 25 in the case of first degree murder.
Seymore Bikes
Gimme Shelter
Sat, 05/08/2010 - 11:14Trikebum - Looking way back, I think you were trying to make the point that people shouldn't be reliant entirely on Bike Lanes; that seems reasonable. Adding that people should seek to educate themselves on safe cycling practices is also valid, but taking the position that Bike Lanes present more danger than safety is just not true.
Are there collisions that take place where Bike Lanes terminate? - yes. Does a false sense of security pose a threat to cyclists when they come out of a Bike Lane? - yes. However, if you look at the overall data and collisions rates, bike lanes do significantly improve safety; to refute this claim without any conclusive data opens you up to ridicule.
So before we all turn our collective backs on the traffic engineers, urban planners, and extensive data that support Bike Lanes, you need to realize the audacity of your position and consider that maybe there is consensus in the place where this whole debate started.
trikebum (not verified)
Why Bike Lanes Are a Bad Idea
Sat, 05/08/2010 - 13:03This was written by Christine Code, CanBike instructor and national examiner:
http://tinyurl.com/25tkyda
She opens with this quote:
> Cyclists tend to blame motorists or road engineering for cycling accidents, and rarely consider that the problem may lie from within. The persons causing most cyclist accidents are cyclists themselves, so by far the most effective method of reducing cycle injuries is learning to drive a bicycle as a vehicle using virtually all the same rules as driving an automobile.
> Panaceas will not solve cyclists' problems. Bike paths and helmets were yesterday's panaceas; today's are bike lanes. Bike lanes are being promoted without considering their adverse effects, and in the absence of any evidence to support the claim they are "safer" for cyclists.
> —Avery Burdett
and she continues with:
> Here are some of the problems that bike lanes create:
>
> * Bike lanes cause turning and crossing conflicts for cyclists and motorists thus encouraging cyclists and motorists to drive in an unsafe fashion.
> * Bike lanes contain additional road hazards for cyclists.
> * Bike lanes lead to discrimination against cyclists.
> * Wider curb lanes would be better than bike lanes for cyclists.
Seymore Bikes
So What?
Sat, 05/08/2010 - 13:49Conclusive data is more than the unsubstantiated opinions of one (CANBIKE instructor or not).
You should also consider that studies have shown that the increases in volume on a Bike Lane, far out pace the overall percentage of accidents, e.g.: 50% increase in the number of cyclists occurs with only a 10% increase in accidents. Proportionate values have consistently shown that a Bike Lanes provide improved safety.
trikebum (not verified)
Are you saying
Sat, 05/08/2010 - 15:49that CanBike instructors lack the qualifications to critique bike facilities?
Seymore Bikes
Critical Acclaim
Sat, 05/08/2010 - 22:36Trikebum - I asked you to provide conclusive data to support your claim the Bike Lanes are more dangerous than safe. All you provided was the expressed opinion on a CANBIKE instructor.
PS - The people that wrote CANBIKE are the same people that play insrumental roles in the implementation of Toronto's Bike Lanes.
trikebum (not verified)
Cycling on the streets of TO
Sun, 05/09/2010 - 07:49following the rules of the road has been best, safe practice for for well over a 100 years.
As segregated facilities are now the 'new kid on the block", I think it's up to the newbies to prove 'conclusively' that these make cycling safer than riding on the road obeying the laws.
After all, you want vehicular cyclists and other taxpayers to bankroll them so you can feel more comfortable without having to learn anything.
OTOH I would happily contribute to a cycling education fund so newcomers will feel comfortable riding on the road in a vehicular manner.
> PS - The people that wrote CANBIKE are the same people that play insrumental roles in the implementation of Toronto's Bike Lanes.
Really? The people who wrote CanBike? Please tell me more.
trikebum (not verified)
Cycling on the streets of TO
Sun, 05/09/2010 - 07:50following the rules of the road has been best, safe practice for for well over a 100 years.
As segregated facilities are now the 'new kid on the block", I think it's up to the newbies to prove 'conclusively' that these make cycling safer than riding on the road obeying the laws.
After all, you want vehicular cyclists and other taxpayers to bankroll them so you can feel more comfortable without having to learn anything.
OTOH I would happily contribute to a cycling education fund so newcomers will feel comfortable riding on the road in a vehicular manner.
> PS - The people that wrote CANBIKE are the same people that play insrumental roles in the implementation of Toronto's Bike Lanes.
Really? The people who wrote CanBike? Please tell me more.
Seymore Bikes
Writing on the Wall
Sun, 05/09/2010 - 08:13Go to canbike.net and check the history tab - any names look familiar?
trikebum (not verified)
CanBike learned from John Forester
Sun, 05/09/2010 - 08:35Yes. Christine Code and this:
> ...a group of instructors in British Columbia had travelled to Seattle to certify as Effective Cycling instructors under the supervision of John Forster.
I see no policies advocating or endorsing segregated facilities..
herb
plenty of evidence from Europe and NYC
Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:25First, CAN-BIKE instructors are not privy to any privileged information. They rely on statistical data as much as anyone else.
Second, I say again that the literature review I linked to shows that the majority of studies out there show that bike lanes and segregated bike lanes have a positive influence on safety and comfort.
Third, you again come up with a ridiculous either/or choice for cyclists: either we have bike facilities and everyone disobeys the law; or we have no bike facilities and everyone obeys the law. This choice is stupid and unrealistic.
anonymous (not verified)
John, is your argument that a
Sat, 05/08/2010 - 16:32John,
is your argument that a nineteen year old who gets carried away, engages in a stoplight drag race with another car, and kills a cyclist is equally evil as a person who hates cyclists, drives the same speed and intentionally swerves into a bike lane, killing someone? Are you saying that both of those people are equally morally blameworthy?
What if the nineteen year old is destroyed by the experience, has nightmares about it for the rest of his or her life, refuses to drive again, and would give anything for the chance to take it back? What if the other person sleeps like a baby and would do the exact same thing again, given the chance? Is your position that these two people should receive equal punishment?
locutas_of_spragge
I would argue...
Sun, 05/09/2010 - 03:06that an unbiased, properly instructed jury could, on the facts in your first example, convict both the street racers in your first example of manslaughter or unpremeditated murder. On the facts in your second example, I believe a properly instructed jury could convict on premeditated murder charges.
Let's change the weapon. Imagine two young men taunt one another over a woman friend. To make the other back down, one produces a Colt; thinking his opposite number intends to fire, the other pull out a Glock. In mutual fear, they exchange shots, and a stray shot kills a pedestrian. Same sad lack of impulse control and lousy judgement, same outcome. But in the case of a gun death, the prosecution would almost certainly level charges of murder, probably against both participants.
anonymous (not verified)
Ok, so assume...
Sun, 05/09/2010 - 07:42... that in the second case, the driver was speeding excessively and spontaneously drove into the bicycle lane with the intent to kill a cyclist. Assume that both are convicted of second degree murder. Both have committed the same offence and both face the same sentence. Are you comfortable with that?
Darren_S
Greater help?
Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:12John, respectively I cannot see how it would be of much help to cyclists if your examples were considered murders or not. It is an argument that has gone on for decades about how much responsibility/knowledge and/or intent a driver has getting behind the wheel. Even if they were considered murders would it change the kill rate of cyclists, which is really low to begin with?
Would greater good not come from a deterrent such as the 'stunt driving law' or something along the lines of 'Greg's Law' that allows for the seizure of vehicles? Maybe something that takes better aim at the aggression on our roads?
Darren_S
Educate?
Sat, 05/08/2010 - 20:27You are now asking
questions to assumptions you made previously?
Damage is not an essential element of negligence, though it can be a
result.
Criminal negligence is the general classification for negligence in the
criminal code. Dangerous Operation is the specific charge for negligent
operation. Subsection 1(a) requires no damage or injury. Only risk that
someone could have been harmed.
Your favourites from the uneducated folks at CanLII show over 414 cases
with respect to subsection 1(a). Here is just one example;
http://www.canlii.org/en/ns/nsca/doc/1997/1997canlii907/1997canlii907.html
Now with a civil suit you are suing for some form(s) of compensation to
replace what you have lost. If you were to a race on a public street
you could face the charge of dangerous driving. If some sort of
loss were to occur you could also be liable to civil action. There is no
way to use a suit to seek compensation for only dangerous driving under
1(a). Though if I had knowledge that you were about to do something
negligent, like dangerous driving, the appropriate civil remedy would be
an injunction to prevent you from doing said act.
Donoghue develops 'duty of care' and does not ask for damage to occur
but "foreseeability of damage" or risk with respect to negligence.
anonymous (not verified)
When you say assumptions, are
Sun, 05/09/2010 - 00:38When you say assumptions, are you referring to my question about your lack of legal training, or your poking around on wikipedia?
Care to answer either of those questions?
Darren_S
Lack credibility
Sun, 05/09/2010 - 10:21Sorry anonymous you lack any credibility or respect to get an answer.
The 'Canadian Judicial Council' may be helpful to you. They have 'codified'-like questions/answers/rationales for several parts of the criminal code. Including 'negligence' and what is an included negligent offence.
Good luck.
anonymous (not verified)
I am not trying to be disrespectful
Sun, 05/09/2010 - 12:24I apologize if you believe that I have been disrespectful - that is not my intention.
My point is simply this: legal terms often have a very precise meaning associated with them. They sound like English, you can find them in the dictionary, but what they actually mean is not exactly what you think they mean - this gets people who don't have legal training in trouble when they go into court and rely on their misunderstanding of the law. "Negligence" happens to be one of those terms.
Darren_S
Apologize?
Sun, 05/09/2010 - 14:38For an apology to have any value it needs, at the very least, credibility. You need a lot of work to build your credibility.
Not asking you to identify yourself but better support your claims. You spend more time trying to deflect with rudeness than answering the issue at hand. You tell us to believe you and trust your word yet do nothing to back it up. Who in their right mind would believe someone named 'anonymous' and is so condescending? Surely you yourself cannot believe anyone will give you any credibility based on your behaviour.
Yes 'negligence' is misunderstood because a lot of people have a hard time understanding the differences between subjective and objective issues involved in its definition.
anonymous (not verified)
I am not trying to deflect
Sun, 05/09/2010 - 16:56I am not trying to deflect with rudeness or be condescending, and I am sincerely sorry if you have interpreted my comments in that way. I have decided that I would prefer not to pursue this with you any further.
Seymore Bikes
Best Intentions of an Axe Murderer
Sun, 05/09/2010 - 07:09If a person acted with a reckless disregard for the safety of others, you could argue negligence; but, if you can prove that they acted with intent, then that's an entirely different matter.
locutas_of_spragge
homicide by car
Sun, 05/09/2010 - 13:48@anonymous - Nothing about the justice system makes me comfortable, but I feel as comfortable with the idea of the racing driver in your scenario facing the penalty for murder as I do with a young man who pulled out a gun in fear for his life facing the same penalty. I acknowledge the impossibility of calibrating legal outcomes precisely to degrees of remorse or culpability. But a look at current dispositions of cases involving traffic deaths, including deaths caused by heinously irresponsible behaviour, indicates a disparity between the punishment for killing with a bullet and killing with a bumper that amounts to effective impunity for drivers. I want to end the impunity. If that means someone who cries for what they have done after they have done it serves as much time as someone with a hateful attitude and no remorse, I regard that as an unfortunate result of an imperfect justice system, and better than a situation where the courts go out of their way to avoid undue inconvenience to people who commit homicide with a car.
@Darren - You ask a fair question. I can only answer that I consider removing impunity for drivers the right thing to do purely on the grounds of justice. I strongly suspect it would alter driver behaviour. The image of the public road as a lawless free for all certainly appears to help car manufacturers sell their "safety" features. I suspect the same perception makes people reluctant to ride. I agree I cannot prove any of this. I would also say that exposing drivers who kill under the most heinous circumstances to the full weight of Canadian murder statutes would not preclude more traffic safety laws.
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