Love 'em or hate 'em, e-bikes have been a hot topic for discussion here.
The province has opened up the discussion of e-bikes, and where they fit into the regulatory framework in Ontario. This follows up on the Stakeholder meeting hosted by MTO on June 16th, and means that everyone can tell the province exactly how they feel the e-bikes pilot has been going, and what how the province should be handling these things going forward. You can through the website and also read the backgrounder.
Comments are due by July 9th. The pilot ends on October 3rd. The referenced document highlights some of the concerns that the province is aware of, and is looking for specific feedback on, such as:
E-Bike Safety Concerns:
- E-bikes are silent (conventional bicycles generate noise from pedalling and chains);
- Ease with which maximum motor speed can be increased through modifications;
- Absence of standards/requirements for e-bike electrical components;
- View that e-bikes can be operated by those with suspended licences to circumvent impaired driving penalties;
- Sharing roads and bicycle paths with pedestrians and cyclists, given that some e-bikes are wider, longer and heavier than regular bicycles;
- Inadequate braking systems, particularly those found on the larger/heavier e-bikes;
- E-bikes resembling scooters cause confusion as to where they fit within the regulatory scheme on the part of law enforcement, municipalities and the general public;
- No requirement for licensing/registration/insurance; and
- Maneuverability and stability compromised due to small tires.
As we can direct our thoughts straight to the decision makers, I hope that we bring some other hot topics here for discussion.
Comments
lOCk
Tell the province what you think of e-bikes
Tue, 06/23/2009 - 03:38Here is a great thread from 2008:
A letter from an e-biker
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The Province is now waving around recommendations formed in 2001 by the CCMTA...
...limit eBikes to 50Kg
...limit eBikes to pedelec (pedal-only where the motor adds power based on pedal input)...
From here:
CCMTA Best Practices Guide
The CCMTA document actually makes NO REQUIREMENT for pedelec only. What it ACTUALLY states is:
"The motor of a motor assisted cycle must cease to function or be disengaged when the operator stops pedaling; or when an accelerator or a motor control switch located on the handlebar is released; or when a brake or brakes are applied."
...and of course that CCMTA document is not backed up by any research but is based only on opinion and speculation...
.
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Furthermore, Transport Canada considered pedal-assist only or separate power when they first studied power-assist bikes in 2000.
Basically at first they had proposed legislation for pedal-assist only, then amended this to permit power separate after their study. Summary page here:
Electric bike 2000 project
From that page:
"The findings demonstrated that the two e-bike systems – electrically propelled and electrically assisted – were equally safe. Therefore, the new regulations should not include restrictions on the motor’s operating apparatus. In addition, users also noted that e-bikes encourage users to obey the Highway Safety Code more strictly (for example, they are more likely to stop at mandatory stops) because the bikes’ motor power makes standing starts easier. "
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It is amusing to re-read that 2008 thread on ibiketo:
"I hope, like Yvonne Bambrick of the Toronto Cyclist Union does, that more of these bikes will mean a better infrastructure for us all."
While in actual fact in 2009 Yvonne (the TCU?) is screaming like a Harpy at City meetings to ban "eBikes" from bike lanes and sidewalks... Hopefully clearer heads will prevail.
Recently the TCU put out a survey to ask Toronto cyclists what they think about "eBikes"... The survey was poorly designed and slanted in its intent. While 3/4 of respondents "voted" to keep "eBikes" out of bicycle lanes, the written comments were more revealing. Some quotes:
"the people who ride electric scooters are not likely to be converted to the bicycle, they have probably already considered it and have chosen a motorized vehicle. It is essential that we enable these folks to stay out of cars. Once they are sharing our space, they will think more like cyclists, and eventually demand the kind of infrastructure that benefit cyclists."
"bike lanes are not sufficient for them, so as they grow in number they will demand more space and safety on the road. These people are new allies and we have to support and encourage them until they can take their own piece of the road."
"Being religious about the 'human power' aspect of the bicycle serves no one. What we need is paths/lanes for slower more vulnerable vehicles and the more people that are using the current ones the more new ones we'll get."
Tks
lOCk
Veloteq E-Biker (not verified)
Lock...You know for a guy
Tue, 06/23/2009 - 10:44Lock...You know for a guy like yourself who I know doesn't care for scooter style e-bikes, I for one appreciate your post.
I cannot stress enough that more choices avialable to the public the more chance we have to get people out of their cars, at least for their short commutes. I use mine every nice day instead of my truck. I rode it in to work today 13 km along Sheppard which could accomodate thousands of these things. Not everyone wants to pedal, and the "look" of the scooter style attracts those people. One less car!
Random cyclist (not verified)
TCU survey up close
Wed, 07/22/2009 - 00:32Lock, if you read the survey's written comments, about 80 per cent of the respondents did say ebikes/escooters belong on the road. Yvonne didn't publicise that bit.
Ken (not verified)
From the tiny part of Ontario
Mon, 09/07/2009 - 20:50From the tiny part of Ontario that "is not" Toronto.
Please forgive my humble entrance into your discussions regarding rights and freedoms, but it seems to me that a small lobby of GTA cyclists( lets call them the Rockers!) who have fought tooth and nail to secure some public space for all cyclists on the mean streets now feel threatened by another group (we'll call the Mods!) who they fear will co-opt their hard-won bicycle lanes. Here's a quote from wikipedia " The rockers considered mods to be weedy, effeminate snobs, and mods saw rockers as out of touch, oafish and grubby"...sound familiar?
Someone brought up the infrastructure point, which in my opinion is well taken, however the intention of the existing bicycle lanes is to accommodate low speed, human powered cycles. Don't get me wrong, e-bikes(open frame or scooter type) are definitely a progressive and sorely-needed technology.
Ethics and subsequent legislation always follows technological innovation. In this case we have the benefit of years of world-wide experience and the input from a local cycling club (the TCU) whose concerns may be extended. Perhaps a sensible compromise would be to keep the mods off of the rockers turf, at least in TO. Municipal guidelines can be developed and as usually happens, in cookie-cutter fashion, other municipalities can raid the jar at will.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are a variety of concerns and issues, only some of which have been covered here. The larger issue of electrical-assist bicycles being given exemption of portions of the HTA, seems a moot point given the experience of the past and across the world. The local issues concerning traffic speeds, types of roads, weather conditions and urban space vary widely across this province. Lets let local issues stay local.
Ken Bell
Chatham-Kent
john park (not verified)
ebike
Tue, 06/23/2009 - 07:36I've never seen anyone actually pedaling the e-bike (scooter version). so to mind mind, it's not a bike and shouldn't be on the bike path.
Random cyclist (not verified)
re: ebike
Wed, 07/22/2009 - 00:29john park said "I've never seen anyone actually pedaling the e-bike (scooter version)."
To parapahrase you, JP, I've never seen a bicyclist obey all the traffic safety laws like signalling turns and stops, or stopping at signs/red lights.
so to mind mind, they're all lawbreakers and shouldn't be on the roads... if we're meant to make rules based on our own anecdotal experiences.
lOCk
ebike
Tue, 06/23/2009 - 08:12Electric scooter a lion in lambs clothes
electric
So far i think the province understands the issues somewhat
Tue, 06/23/2009 - 18:43It seems like the "escooter" style one is going to go.
Good riddens, it was a corruption of the original intentions behind the pilot-project.
Concerns about it's weight, instability due to tiny wheels and the inadequate braking are all valid points. Those 80kg silent torpedos aren't for bike lanes... hey at least if you get doored you can rip the car-door right off and not go flying over it!!
lock,
Your quotes are taken out of context, from unreliable sources and a misrepresentation, for one "the province" isn't ontario but instead it's alberta. Nice try though - next time try writing something thoughtful instead of pasting randomness.
And for all those e-bikers who can't pedal anything and still want two-wheels, it's called a moped/scooter/motorcycle/car.. lots of other choices out there for you, don't tear at my heart strings claiming that forcing escooters onto the road and getting insurance is a death sentence.
Cheers.
Veloteq E-Biker (not verified)
The Federal Definition has
Tue, 06/23/2009 - 19:07The Federal Definition has been adopted by all of Canada as will be Ontario. The "Intent" was to convince people not to use their 2000 pound cars to go to the corner store to get a jug of milk.
Why would you wish people off an electric bike and back into their car, or worse yet a motorcycle that emits more toxins than any three cars? 16 inch wheels are certainly not tiny and can be found on some bicycles. I will agree that if a person thinks that a 132 - 175 pound bike, capable of speeds up to 32 km per hour, is too much bike for them, they are probably right.
electric
16" wheels are found on childrens bicycles - on the sidewalk.
Wed, 06/24/2009 - 23:48Going to say this to you one last time, eScooters are the problem, not eBikes.
Great, we're done.
Veloteq E-Biker (not verified)
Electric...You are aware that
Tue, 06/23/2009 - 19:16Electric...You are aware that Alberta also once concerned about an e-bikes weight announced they are removing that restriction as of July 1st after realizing there was insufficient proof to prove that the increased weight of the bike was no more dangerous than a 200 pound projectile on a 12 pound bike. Thousands and thousands of accidents a year and you dare point a finger at us.
Luke Siragusa
Re: Electric...You are aware that
Wed, 06/24/2009 - 18:12If I understand you correctly, in Alberta, an e-bike/scooter can notionally weigh as much as a car and still be allowed in bike lanes?
Your point about a 200 pound projectile, i.e., rider, on a 25 lb bike carrying the same punch as a 125lb rider on a 100 lb scooter, is well taken, but I'm for a limit. Otherwise a candidate for a bike near you could be that same 200 lb. rider on a 250 lb. eWhatever and that strikes me as cause for concern.
I'd like to see constraints on power, weight, and size otherwise what's to prevent pseudo golf carts and such from inundating cyclists' lanes? This strikes me as definitely too much of a good thing.
Further, though such eBeasts may not exist or be popular now, good laws should acknowledge that eVehicles are a dynamic lot, and anticipate that not all flavours of battery driven wheels yet to transpire may be compatible with their pedal powered counterparts.
Svend
Luke, that's a fair comment
Wed, 06/24/2009 - 19:10Luke, that's a fair comment if you also like a constraint on the length, width, height or weight of human powered vehicles allowed in the bike lane.
This might mean wider trikes or bicycles with trailers have to travel in the car lane though.
random cyclist (not verified)
A golf cart would not be
Wed, 06/24/2009 - 21:49A golf cart would not be allowed in the bike lane because it is not a power assisted bike. I don't think most people get it. There are guidelines that the federal government imposed on e-bikes to prevent such things from appearing.
No weight restriction has existed in BC for 6 years and no "beasts" are on the road there either. Considering there have been thousands on Ontario roads and apparently an impeccable track rrecord should be worth something. If ontario becomes the province to kill the e-bike by licencing them, they would be the only province in canada that did. I guess it could happen. BC did not have cycling unions whining about them. why would they? Better than a car. I dont own one but I think they are cool. 32 kilometres an hour doesnt do it for me. I drive most places and bicycle once in a while. Too hot today to bicycle.
The Pedaller (not verified)
Pandora's "Bike"
Wed, 06/24/2009 - 23:18What we all accept as a bicycle is clear and unmistakable.
What I see happening is a fundamental change in what we define as a bike (or reasonable facsimile thereof).
Should an "e-bike" be allowed where bikes are? Even the label of e-bike applies to two different styles (Scooter & PAB).
If we open the bike lanes and paths to different types of traffic, where do you draw the line?
Is it Electric Skateboards? Or maybe Power Assisted Roller Blades?
No?
How about E-Powered Baby Strollers?
No?
Solar Powered Gyro-Shperes then?
Luke Siragusa
Re: Pandora's "Bike"
Thu, 06/25/2009 - 00:42Yeah Pedaller that's the heart of the issue. And without that line what's the point of painting that other line, the one that demarcates bike lanes? Just let everyone sort themselves out.
But I suppose that's for another thread...
;-)
electric
Luke, your math is off a bit.
Wed, 06/24/2009 - 23:1280kg is 176 lbs
176lbs of steel will do far more damage to a human body when compared 26lbs of steel followed by 150lbs of soft flesh. Both projectiles weight the same but the dangerous difference being in the density of the material and how easily it yields or doesn't!
Yeah, if i recall it was Alberta and not Ontario that was lifting those regulations...
The Pedaller (not verified)
Ten to One
Wed, 06/24/2009 - 23:25Quoting another previous poster here:
Bike : E-Scooter : Car it's all about a 10:1 ratio of weight/mass
So stop with the micro analysis already.
If you're really unsure then ask yourself: Do you want to get hit by a 90lb person driving a 180lb e-bike or a 250 lb person riding a 20 lb bike?
*Hint: The 250 lb rider is not encased in a metal frame with a fiberglass shell
Svend
Is there an instance where a
Thu, 06/25/2009 - 11:15Is there an instance where a cyclist has been rammed by an e-bike? Who cares about the 10:1 ratio, why all the fear mongering?
Nobody says anything about recumbent bikes with their chainring up front acting as a human powered chain saw, imagine if they were banned from bike lanes. It's a ridiculous idea.
lOCk
Sorry "electric"! Please
Wed, 06/24/2009 - 01:01Sorry "electric"! Please clarify which sources are unreliable? Was it the CCMTA, Transport Canada, or the TCU?
Tks
lock
lOCk
Hi "electric"... your point
Wed, 06/24/2009 - 01:08Hi "electric"... your point about "instability due to tiny wheels" is interesting. Can you point to any studies or reference sources about this please? I see quite a few folding pedal bikes around town these daze that seem to have very small diameter wheels. Also I have driven well over 10,000kms on 12" wheels... Any light you can shed would be appreciated!
Thanks
Lock
electric
99% of statistics are made up on the spot!
Wed, 06/24/2009 - 23:24Citing studies is great for people like you lock.. keep up the good work.
Maybe... once you cite enough studies you'll even get a clue about how things really work!
p.s. if you want to have a civil discussion, tone yourself down a bit... one isn't going to get anything solved by frothing at the mouth.
Until then,
ciao!
lOCk
electric... without studying
Sun, 06/28/2009 - 05:29electric... without studying things, isn't everything else conjecture?
lOCk
@ "electric" "... for one
Wed, 06/24/2009 - 01:13@ "electric"
"... for one "the province" isn't ontario but instead it's alberta."
Sorry again electric! I misunderstood and thought this thread was all about the recent posting by Ontario about the end of their pilot project on ebikes... seeking feedback on their thoughts about fine-tuning the Ontario legislation!
Never mind!
Random cyclist (not verified)
Tell the province... to focus on something *important*
Tue, 06/23/2009 - 21:27It's pretty clear that the Rest Of Canada has shown that safety concerns raised by TCU about 'scooter' style ebikes are at best, unfounded in real life experiences over the past several years, and at worst, bogus and needlessly alarmist.
To my eye it seems to come down to two fundamental complaints that YB and the ROC will never be able to reconcile:
Personally, I think that bicycle carrier baskets full of fake plastic flowers are ugly, but I wouldn't invent phony reasons to ban them. And frankly, walking is just as healthy for you as bicycling, plus you're allowed to do it on the sidewalk if the cyclers on King St. will let you.
Consumer choice and consumer taste -- including the choice to be seen in public riding an ugly contraption -- is hardly an issue to rail to politicians about when there is so much good in the world that needs doing. (Bikes for Africa, homeless people here in T.O, etc.)
I honestly don't see how the TCU scores it as a "win" when I ditch the eScooter and buy a noisy and smelly motorcycle because the license and insurance will be the same for both.
random cyclist (not verified)
If I can't ride my e-bike as
Tue, 06/23/2009 - 21:39If I can't ride my e-bike as of October, life will go on and I will ride my Chevy. No big woop as they say. I paid $500.00 for it used a few years ago and got some good use out of it. To the dump it goes along with the rest of them. I will certainly not licence and insure an electric bicycle. Sleep well Toronto Cycling Union leaders, you did a good job at getting us back in our cars. You really didnt think this one through did you? I may make bumber stickers that say "HONK IF YOU USE TO HAVE AN E-BIKE"
electric
Most likely you can still ride your escooter in October
Wed, 06/24/2009 - 23:33You just can't ride it in a bike lane or multi-use pathway.
Keep up the drama though, you might be able to write a good country song in your chevy with all that passive aggressiveness ya'll got.
Maybe you can make a feature film, "TCU killed the electric scooter"
haha, i love it.
PedalPowerPat
Phony Side Argument
Wed, 06/24/2009 - 03:10Well thats sorta true, you do not suck on as much exhaust when on a sidewalk due to not being directly behind auto-mobiles and we all know that doesn't help your lungs at all.
This statement however is completely untrue unless you are talking about the extremely casual scenic cyclists that coast whenever possible.
The vast majority of cyclists that use the road to get from A to B push themselves alot harder than casual Jane / Joe cyclist going 5km/h.
I'm not trying to flex my "e-peen" but I've had motorists tell me "You're going 30km/h, not bad dude!" Thats when I realise someone is watching and I push myself to about 40-45 km/h.
I realise I do not represent the majority of cyclists but I think most/all people (on this site) can attest to the fact that cycling gives you a much higher excersize regiment than just walking in the same amount of time.
Veloteq E-Biker (not verified)
Electric...Actually if they
Thu, 06/25/2009 - 10:23Electric...Actually if they get voted off the bike lanes and paths, no they cannot go on the road You cannot just stick a motor on a bicycle and call it a motorcyle. There are guidelines. An e-bike is not equipped to be made to go faster. Underneath the plastic is a heavy duty bicycle frame not a motorcycle or scooter frame. The thousands upon thousands of scooter style e-bikes presently on the roads in Ontario would sit in garages until they were landfill. Easy to say licence and insure them, but the bike lanes are the only lanes open to them. If a pedal bicycle was to be all of a sudden insured and licenced it would not be as attractive as an alternative anymore to some people. It certainly would deter alot of people. The mandate for sustainable transportation and energy options is still in effect, and one of the options that is a proven success across Canada is "questioned" in Ontario by a small group of individuals. I have mentioned before and I will mention again, I think the TCU is doing some wonderful things, but they are way off base on this issue. The last thing they should want is to force scooter style e-bikers back in their cars for their short commuting needs. I rode mine to work 13 km today, instead of my truck. Multiply my story times the future potential of hundreds of thousands of motorists who would gladly switch if it means not pedalling. To pay insurance and licence fees to reach a maximum speed of 32 km per hour on level ground, would go over about as well as if cyclists had to pay for insurance and licence. The scooter style e-bike presently can be ridden on bike lanes and paths across Canada.
Wishing all these people back into cars to travel their 2 -15 km trip to work or to the store is nothing short of insane. And did I mention this mindset is only happening in Ontario? The TCU knows how to play the system so it was critical to get them (and others like them) to look at the bigger picture, but it's like talking to a wall. Millions of people in smaller towns and cities across Ontario do not experience the same "congestion" issues as those living and working in Downtown Toronto.
So many bike lanes across Ontario are seriously underused and capable of transporting thousands and thousands to their destination without using their car. If this ban of e-bikes happens in Ontario, it would be a serious step backwards for a province that should have been the leader in this great alternative to a car. We understand Downtown Toronto is seriously lacking bike lanes and there is too many bikes and too many pedestrians and too many cars. That is not even close to true elsewhere. Think outside your box!
andrew d (not verified)
Easy to say licence and
Thu, 06/25/2009 - 12:22I'm confused. How are bike lanes the only lanes open to e-bikes? I've in fact never even seen one in a bike lane, although I've seen a few in curb lanes. Isn't there a middle ground between denying them access to bike lanes and licensing them?
However, I don't really see their presence in bike lanes a big deal. Can anyone who knows a little physics comment on this whole idea of the effect of metal weight vs. fleshy weight in a collision?
electric
Andrew, check out some materials deformation.
Thu, 06/25/2009 - 22:40Basically a person deforms a whole lot easier than steel.
In physics speak a collision between two objects of the same mass - an 80kg scooter and 80kg human going the same speed exerts the same kinetic energy, or force - as measured by F=1/2mv^2
When an 80kg person and an 80kg person collide at a certain speed, both people deform in an equal manner, this is because they have about the same elastic modulus.
But when a 80kg head-tube or handlebar made of steel hits a person, said person is absorbing the force(stress) in a small area - such as their back or legs in a scooter strike - is far far far more likely to experience high levels of strain(a measure of deformation) on their body while absorbing said impulse. Just to give you an idea, it takes to 30,000,000 lb/in^2 of force to compressively deform steel... rubber is something like 15,000 lb/in^2. You're not going to deform steel with your body.
If you got hit directly on the leg/body by a steel headtube of an escooter weighting 80kg it would feel the same as being hit with a 80kg/176lb steel baseball bat going 32km/h. If you've been hit by a wooden bat, which has a lower elastic modulus and weighs 2lbs before then you can have an idea of just how damaging this 176lb steel bat would be. Comparatively a 2lb pork chop(a scaled down 80kg person) hitting you at the same speed as the 2lb bat causes far less strain yet in both collisions the force is the same.
Personally i'd rather be hit by a car going 32km/h, at least some of cars have crumple hoods and the force of the collision is spread out over a larger area, which would result in less "strain" on my body. Oh and those plastic fairings... they won't offer any "crumple zone" protection for the child who accidental strays out in front of you - they'll just shatter.
Ben
agreement
Fri, 06/26/2009 - 12:21I mostly agree with what you've said, but there are two factors I can think of that change things slightly:
It is scary to think of one hitting a child while travelling at top speed, but without crash testing it's difficult to say whether it is more dangerous than a car in a collision.
lOCk
Hehe... lots of science
Sun, 06/28/2009 - 10:21Hehe... lots of science here... not much common sense ("common sense", one of my favourite oxymorons... and who snuck "moron" into the word oxymoron anyway?)
As a pedestrian I have been knocked over twice already by car bimbos driving their 20th-century motorized carriages... Fortunate both times that I ended up on the hood instead of underneath...
Please the Gawds may the next vehicle be only two wheeled... gas or electric or pedalled, I don't care.
When you strip away the seat belts and air bags and crush zones, it makes for a FAR safer vehicle, (for everyone else around.) Because of the basic human need of self-preservation. Lets get back to basics!
tks
lOk
Random cyclist (not verified)
A little knowledge
Wed, 07/22/2009 - 00:42Andrew D you got your precise wish. 'Electric' knows a little about physics.
Luke Siragusa
Re: Electric...Actually if they
Thu, 06/25/2009 - 13:50From Veloteq E-Biker:
From Electro rocket in another thread:
It seems there's a divergence of opinion.
dash (not verified)
frames
Thu, 06/25/2009 - 14:34http://www.e-ride.ca/Electric_Scooters/index.html
I just checked the one website above, but all their models (which seem to cover all the different ones I've personally seen on the road) have motorcycle grade steel frames.
Many of these bikes are 200 pounds and up too with the battery installed. Having been hit by a bike before, I definitely don't want one of these plowing into me while I'm riding (or walking).
Definitely be careful around them guys, they're a bit scarier than I thought.
Veloteq E-Biker (not verified)
Most scooter style e-bikes
Thu, 06/25/2009 - 15:38Most scooter style e-bikes range from 132 pounds to 176 pounds. If you are scared of these you must be petrified of cars...and so you should be. The ICBC (equivalent to the MTO & Insurance) company in British Columbia would have insured and licenced these 6 years ago if they felt the need for it. I cannot change your fears..Do you have any fears dashing downhill on your bicycle at 50 km per hour and hitting a pothole and being ejected from your bike, or do you just lay awake fearing to be rear ended from one of us. LOL Don't be afraid Dash...We see you.
E-Biker (not verified)
Please give real accident stats!!!
Thu, 06/25/2009 - 16:25Please have the TCU and the MTO show us some real accident statistics involving E-Bikes for the last 3 years then compare it to bicycle accident statistics on our roads. That should show who is more dangerous on our roads by real world statistics instead of the TCU and cyclists fake made up fear mongering!!
E-Biker
E-Biker (not verified)
Now for the real truth from the TCU and cyclists!!!!
Thu, 06/25/2009 - 17:11What is wrong, you cannot provide the evidence for all the lies you cyclists and TCU have been spewing out! You say E-Bikes are so dangerous yet you cannot produce one shred of evidence to back up your claims at all. Now the real truth comes out!!
E-Biker
The Pedaller (not verified)
The Truth?
Thu, 06/25/2009 - 23:28Well E-Biker, I would have preferred to address this point before you accused (all) cyclists and the TCU of "spewing" lies, but I guess your opinion (in your opinion) is the "truth".
The lack of ANY data on the operation of e-bikes on roads, bike lanes and bike paths is limited at best; so your point works both for you and against you.
To my knowledge, there is no data on snow mobile use on public roads and highways either, but that doesn't mean that we should allow them on these domains.
I respect that people will want to make points both for and against e-bikes, but try to keep from losing your composure in a public forum.
E-Biker (not verified)
Well if there is little or no
Fri, 06/26/2009 - 00:31Well if there is little or no data then why are the cyclists on this forum and the TCU stating E-Bikes are dangerous when there is no evidence to prove it. Yet in the rest of the world E-Bikes have been proven to be a safe viable form of transportation. Why is only Ontario and especially Toronto and the TCU the only place in the world trying to get this proven form of vehicle off of the roads. And before you say the TCU only wants them out of the bike lanes, where did the MTO get the idea to try and get them classified as LSMs, from the TCU of coarse. The TCU knows that if E-Bikes are classed as LSMs they will be killed off of the market the same way Mopeds were in the past. I know what the TCU and the more selfish cyclists are trying to do this so that they will no0t have to share the public paid biking infrastructure. But the reason E-Bikes were allowed in bike lanes was for the public who paid for the bike lanes would get more use of them then there is now. Remember Toronto is only a very small part of Ontario and Toronto and the TCU should not be trying to change all of Ontario's E-Bike laws without consulting all the rest of the cities and towns in Ontario with a none biased vote. And do not bring up the TCU's poll. It was childishly slanted against E-Bikes with unfair bias in every question and did not mean anything. The CBC poll was a real poll that was not biased and it should be used instead.
So if you need proof of the high safety record of E-Bikes ask most of Canadian provinces, most of the USA and all of the U.K. and England, then you will see how foolish you the TCU and Ontario will look in the eyes of the rest of the world. I am ashamed that my son and daughter will grow up knowing they live in a city that instead of embracing a newer form of transportation instead tries to ban it because the city is too scared to try something that is new but proven safe over the last six years. Plus Ontario listens to a small group of cyclists (that does not always follow the laws) and the TCU that is only interested in it's own selfish interests only and is not interested in what is good for anything outside of its small section of Toronto and the GTA but not the rest of Ontario.
E-Biker
electric
We'll be asking questions and not just accepting others word
Fri, 06/26/2009 - 01:25I'd say the TCU just want eScooters out of bike-lanes, out of multi-use pathways, and a reclassification of escooter styled e-bikes into LSMs. This isn't the same as banning them from the roads.
Again, TCU hasn't taken a stance against e-bikes. Only the eScooters. You're free to pedal your real ebike, you know, the one that isn't a moped with a battery instead of gas tank and vestigial pedals.
E-bikes, specifically the eScooters are a brand new development- they have no saftey record here. Sorry, but you can't compare apples(traffic records from denmark) to oranges(traffic records from china) and just assume everything else is equal. I don't see why eScooters should be any safer than a gas scooter - Though, you could use the gas scooter's safety record in Ontario.
Again it hasn't been proven "safe"... haha who is saying it's been proven safe??
If you're not proud to live here, thats OK. When I hear about all these selfish escooter owners who don't follow the spirit of our rules and laws that govern out streets, who just reinterpret them and take advantage driving/parking their scooters where they like I feel a little ashamed for them also.
E-Biker (not verified)
E-Bikes have been proven safe
Fri, 06/26/2009 - 10:37E-Bikes have been proven safe around the world and that DOES matter. Just because a small number of cyclists and a so called union will not accept the truth should not be listened to in a provincial scale. Cyclists always use Copenhagen and other countries as evidence in topics on bicycles and you are saying E-Bikers cannot use other cities and countries as proof as well. How biased and unprofessional is that! If you just want to use TCU's coverage area (Toronto and the GTA only) then the E-Bikers have already won, because there is no instances of accidents from scooter style E-Bikes except for the cyclists and TCU false information compared to the hundreds of reported and real accidents involving bicycles every year. Let's see a vehicle with no proven accidents over a 3 year period verses a vehicle with a proven track record of hundreds of accidents every year, which one is safer on our roads and bike lanes statistically. Also which vehicle off the showroom floor has more built in safety features:
Bicycle
built in on the store floor
- built in reflectors
- light duty brakes
- may or may not have a light duty suspension system
- narrow tires
safety devices needed to be added after the sale
- bell or horn
- helmet (but adults do not need a safety helmet)
- front headlight
- cargo space in the form of bags or baskets
- fenders or mud guards
E-Bike scooter style
built in on the store floor
safety devices needed to be added after the sale
See the differences. And this is real world proven, Any E-Bike store has the proof setting on the showroom floor in actual hardware.
E-Biker
electric
Hilarious that "motorcycle grade" keeps on popping up
Fri, 06/26/2009 - 23:05Thought it was a bicycle? Hahaha, nice double-speak.
Your eScooter includes for $2000-3000
Most of the above items can be put on a $800 bike for well less than a total sum of $3000
that definatly includes racks, pannier bags, fenders, lights and larger tires.. you can buy two bikes for the price on an escooter.
If you're going to cite accident stats, please provide us some real numbers.. maybe from the TPS...
How many e-bikers are there compared to cyclists anyways???
Copenhagen is a great city to cycle in. Probably cuz they don't let motorcycles in their bike lanes.
dash (not verified)
used the wrong wording
Fri, 06/26/2009 - 14:42I used the wrong wording for sure. I didn't mean to send out the "fear" concept. What I was trying to do was communicate that one shouldn't take the e-scooters for granted as something as nimble as a fellow cyclist in the bike lane. Sure there's lots of lighter ones out there, but knowing there's heavy ones too is enough to change habits.
In other words, give them the same amount of respect as you would the car, motorcycle or gas scooter in terms of how that vehicle would react to a hinky situation (and how you would act in turn).
I may over-think it on the roads, but my OCD in this helps me sleep at night.
As for barreling down a hill at high speeds, no I admit I would not do that (not without scouting first anyway if it's a race). I am definitely scared of the potential potholes and debris. heh
E-Biker (not verified)
That Dash I do agree with,
Fri, 06/26/2009 - 15:07That Dash I do agree with, thanks for clarifying it. Like you said if the scooter style E-Bike Riders give the cyclists the respect on the roads they deserve and the cyclists give the scooter style E-Bike riders the respect on the roads they deserve then there will be little problems and we would not have to argue like this and have the cyclists try and get us ruled off of the roads. In the rest of the world scooter style E-Bikes and cyclists get along fine, why can't Toronto, the TCU and the Toronto cyclists?
If cyclist change and try and get along with us scooter style E-Bike riders then we will try and help the cyclists get more and better cycling infrastructure. I know I would if the cyclists stopped trying to get the MTO to reclassify the scooter style E-Bikes into a license/insurance required classification that will kill the market. Until then I am going to fight against them and against their organization in any way I can.
E-Biker
lOCk
"Most scooter style e-bikes
Sun, 06/28/2009 - 10:33"Most scooter style e-bikes range from 132 pounds to 176 pounds."
Interesting to note that about 80% of the rest of the ebike world ride bikes that weigh less than 100lbs... Why is that do you think?
cheers
lOk
Random cyclist (not verified)
Steel yourself
Fri, 06/26/2009 - 23:40There's a difference between "motorcycle grade steel frames" and "motorcycle frames." I have "air frame grade titanium" implants in my root canal but I don't have an F-18 in my jaw.
BTW "motorcycle grade steel" is lighter and stronger. (emphasis on the lighter), which seems to be a concern of a lot of people.
Can anyone show any police or insurance or hospital reports anywhere of collision results between an e-Scooter and a bicycle that was any different from two bicycles colliding? "Electric's" theoretical physics lessons are enthralling, but there needs to be some practical lab experience introduced into the mix.
The space station could theoretically fall into Toronto and kill us all but the practical possibility of that is about as likely as an eBiker trading in their machine for a 1962 Schwinn.
electric
How about a meatball experiment!
Sat, 06/27/2009 - 00:30Experiment #1
Throw a meatball at a ball of steel, make sure the meatball is about the same mass at your piece of steel.
My hypothesis: meatball deforms due to excessive strain, possibly exploding and ruining your spaghetti diner not to mention making a mess.
Expriment #1
Throw a steel ball at a steel ball.
My hypothesis: steel balls bounce off each other and go their seperate ways.
possible explanation: meatballs aren't as resilient to strain as steel balls.
hypothesis: for all intents are purposes human flesh is about the same as a meatball when colliding with steel objects.
Rocket science??
Motorcycle grade steel is stronger(harder to deform with your body) but as for lighter, 20-30% max for HSLA types, this isn't so exciting because the escooters real problem is mostly the heavy motor and battery attached behind said super-hard steel...
Veloteq E-Biker (not verified)
Scooter Style E-bikes range
Thu, 06/25/2009 - 15:25Scooter Style E-bikes range in price from $500.00 to $3000.00 and there are many different manufacturers of different bikes with different frames underneath. The cosmetic coverings resembling scooters is placed over top of all of these bikes so they end up looking identical.
In other words, If you dress a duck up with a tuxedo and a top hat...it is still a duck. Some bikes because of their weight or lack there of use drum brakes. Others a little heavier may use disc brakes. Most brakes on most scooter style e-bikes actually exceed the requirements by law.
It is up to the rider on both a bicycle and an e-bike to perform safety checks.
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